Trans spouse - general discussion

[Zita60]

I've started this thread because @confusedpasty's thread about her husband announcing he is trans has got derailed with general discussion about trans spouses and trans people in general. Any such discussion can take place here, leaving @confusedpasty's thread for comments about her specific case.

This was my last post on @confusedpasty's thread, reposted here:

@fairadvocate
I found out some months ago that transgender womens brains or perceptions tend to be fairly aligned with women in general when it comes to self perception and appearance.

I hate to further derail this thread, but this is not true.

Differences in transwomen's brains have been found, but they do not align neatly with women's or men's brains.

"Our results support the hypothesis that brain structure in TW differs from brain structure of their biological sex (male) as well as their perceived gender (female)."
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0666-3

However, studies like this compare trans people's brains with those of heterosexual people. This is an important drawback, because differences in the brains of heterosexual and homosexual people have been observed.

The following study compared the brains of trans people with a set of non-transpeople that included both heterosexual people and homosexual people.

"After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership,"

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8

It’s the same as body dysmorphia if a health condition; we can’t rule out the impact of porn too however

Aka, porn makes them trans too

I haven’t seen the thread; could you link to it please?

I find it very hard to believe that transwomen's brains align more with women's brains than men's given the extreme threats of physical violence towards women who don't do as they are told, the absolute sense of entitlement that they should get what they want and women should accommodate them, in sport, in marriage, at work, in society at large, that lesbians should switch allegiance so they have access to whatever woman takes their fancy etc.

Obviously NATWALT, but a vociferous number have such hilariously male-pattern behaviour of violence, control, entitlement, dominance, and show no signs of quietly, sweetly accommodating what others want, as they expect biological women to do for them.

I have never once seen bio women threaten transwomen with rape, death etc on placards on online because they do not share beliefs. But I have seen transwomen do this with tiresome frequency.

I supported my SIL.to leave my transitioning brother. I still think in their case splitting up was the right thing to do.
I think living with a trans partner who has come to it through porn and AGP would be very hard for the partner and ultimately restricting for the trans person.
Is there any chance my brother, living as a trans woman will successfully have a mutually supportive relationship.
At the moment he is mostly in a ketamine fuelled, sleepover situation with woman who come with their own problems. He occasionally escalates the AGP by getting beaten up by other men.
He is clearly not in the right place currently for a standard relationship whilst he explores his new trans personality, will this ever settle down?

The results that I have seen of brain scan papers indicate that the male trans person’s brain is within the male range. And that one paper did not make consideration for homosexual male sexual orientation in the group. They might sit in a grouping towards one end of the range but still within the range.

This was the original thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5341361-annulling-marriage-as-spouse-is-trans

That's very true. Transwomen activists so often betray their maleness in the way they behave, particularly when challenged by women who are fighting to keep our rights. They're not exactly demonstrating how "womanly" they are.

@FairAdvocate

In the hope that you find this thread.

You posted

I think that of trans groups are mostly based on lack of rights. I think that really if that's achieved and more support is given for transgender to just get on and transition alot of this will just go away.

What rights do trans people not have?

I think that people who hold views such as yours are actually just creating a situation where transgender voices get louder due to actual discrimination taking place.

What discrimination is taking place?

Ultimately, as much as it goes back and forth, I think that the majority of rights will be achieved eventually.

Trans people already have the same rights as everyone else, why is this not enough?

you also posted that MN is cult like about trans people, have you thought that this is because that those that questioned the trans ideology were shutdown and kicked out of everywhere else.
Have you considered that if TRAs had allowed discussion to happen then this wouldn't have happened?

Ah thanks, I saw that on Twitter. Poor woman

I think it was unfortunate that it was publicised on Twitter - it's brought a few transactivists onto her thread here. They seem to have more sympathy for the husband than for her.

No surprise there

I just want to repeat this comment here; transitioning of one spouse is legal grounds for annulment. More women should know this.

The fact people don't like that or think its 'phobic' is irrelevant. I'm starting to think that marriage under false pretences should be an offence. Too many women end up with a trashed career, reduced pension, and children to raise.

The utter moronity of some of male vs female vs trans brain stuff - including ‘scientific’ essays based on outdated research, dimwittedness and wishful thinking - reduces me to despair sometimes. Male and female brains (in mammals used for neurological research but it’s not unreasonable to extrapolate to humans) are different at the cellular and molecular level, even if structurally they seem similar. Why do you think so much of the research in pharma used to be done with males alone? Research in females requires many more test subjects because females need to be screened against stage of the menstrual cycle because of the complex effect of hormones etc in the brain. Look it up. And those who are repeating the stupid, stupid statements, you need to do better. I realise this isn’t most of the people on this message board - to you, apologies. Occasionally I need to vent!

Aside the fact that the marriage is now annulled anyway, if the husband came out as gay, the woman would be VERY unlikely to want to remain in the marriage. And the husband would see that that was untenable.

this is why the condition of coming out as trans but expecting nothing to change is abusive.

@FrippEnos you also posted that MN is cult like about trans people, have you thought that this is because that those that questioned the trans ideology were shutdown and kicked out of everywhere else.
Have you considered that if TRAs had allowed discussion to happen then this wouldn't have happened?

I think that's a very good point. Over the last 10 years, we could have had productive conversations about how trans people's needs could be accommodated in society without infringing on the rights of other groups, particularly women. But instead, transactivists have attempted to shut down all debate about the issues, and demanded that we all believe in their ideology.

By now we could have had regulations requiring public buildings to provide both single-sex facilities and mixed-sex facilities, and a clear understanding that single-sex means biological sex. But instead, we are in this mess where the Supreme Court has clarified that sex in the EA is biological sex and transactivists are screaming that they will defy the law.

Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership

This stands out to me. It would explain why people with gender dysphoria don't see themselves as their actual sex.

I think there are other issues related to why people say they are trans, such as ROGD in young girls, autogynophilia in men etc. But this could be an explanation for long-standing gender dysphoria, such as a trans colleague of mine described.

For those who didn't follow the previous thread, @FairAdvocate is a transwoman who decided to come on the thread to warn the OP against listening to women who agreed that the OP had the right to be upset by:

• the deception practiced by her partner (who, according to FairAdvocate themself - "when the egg cracks", knew all along that they were trans),
• the interestingly tricky timing of her partner's decision to come out (now that OP had been legally captured by marriage), and
• her partner's self-absorption and emotional blackmail of OP to stay in the marriage to "support" her.

All of these reasons are completely valid reasons for OP feeling betrayed. And not wanting to have sex with someone for whatever reason, including a transitioning/transitioned transwoman, is also her complete right.

So the thread started out with PPs giving useful advice about annulment vs. divorce and PPs who had similar experiences talking about them. Then a number of trans advocates came and turned the thread into a debating game, with FairAdvocate being particularly pushy.

FairAdvocate started with:

"Im going to be honest with you, Mums net is not a good place to get advice for this. Its a known hate website against transgender people and almost all of them here will do is try to lure you down and hate your current or soon to be not current partner. Its perfectly fine to want to leave her. But I really just want to caution you because alot of these people dont want to help you; they want to turn you."

They called PPs "horrendous people", "disingenuous", "abusive", "troubling", not "legitimately healthy", "imposing ideology", talking "nonsense", making "wild and unprovable claims", having "strange and cult-like grievances", calling factual examples "ideology", and it being a "waste of my life" to actually address the facts that were presented.

PPs saw this as typical entitled-male behaviour - argumentative, condescending, not really addressing the PPs'points, being a blowhard, and not respecting the OP's space.

I have a trans child, who I support in her transition, and I agree with PPs. If my child would behave as FairAdvocate, I'd tell her to stop talking and start listening.

The thing that struck me the most about FairAdvocate was the complete one-eyed focus on and centration of trans people. Biological women are seen as meany nuisances that stand in the way of what FairAdvocate wants.

It was particularly telling when a PP made the point that trans communities can also be cult-like and gave the example of how people who detransition are shunned by the trans community, FairAdvocate said,

"So while yes, I do think for example things like r/transgender can have cultlike mentalities that I don't paticulary like I also understand it's coming mainly from some scared people."

FairAdvocate seems to have forgotten - or never realized or cared - that biological women are also scared. Some of them really don't want people with a penis and a powerful male build in their safe spaces, because they are acutely cognisant of male violence and they're scared of men (for good reason).

TRAs should NOT have pushed the toilet issue, they should have pushed for a third toilet. A small proportion of transgender advocates HAVE been extremely violent in their behaviour and language - including threatening rape - when there was pushback from biological women. The disreputable behaviour of TRAs at the recent court decision, especially the defacement of Millicent Fawcett's statue recently, was upsetting. It's very male behaviour, and all it has done is cement the fear of biological women and their resistance. Such TRA behaviour has set back tolerance for all trans people.

Violence and aggression are not the answer. Neither is coming on the thread of a woman in distress and disrupting it by making it a debating field and flinging around dismissive insults to PPs.

brain scan papers indicate that the male trans person’s brain is within the male range

Self evidently. It's a male brain.

This isn't a poke at the poster who said that, but male is male, and therefore in the male range. If not, it's the range that's wrong.

I’m just pulling this bit out of Louise’s post

“ It's very male behaviour, and all it has done is cement the fear of biological women and their resistance”

to add it’s massively entitled to claim womanhood whilst relying on the fear built up over centuries by men and male violence. All the current aggression we are seeing relies on everyone understanding the danger of violent men, being threatened by years of experience, whilst having the luxury of saying “but we are not men.”

Precisely. And if it was counter argued by the woman that to stay in the marriage, as they transition, she would get an open marriage I suspect the #bekind expectation would not be forthcoming and work 2 ways.

both scenarios change the entire fabric of the marriage so if one thing changes another has to, keeping the balance.

I've posted before about brain scans and extremist behaviour and how you can change this according to exposure to differences of opinion.

So I'm inclined not to just to too many conclusions about what scans may or may not mean and why there is a difference.

There are many explanations here.

None of these mean that a male is actually a female in the wrong body though.

I’ve just posted about this on twitter
https://x.com/transwidows/status/1927310672339108198?s=46&t=PSGltfjrMyZmBtYq2-AVIQ

Well I hope FairAdvocate is proud of themselves filling up the thread of a woman who needed help and support with their own voice. Shouting loudly so no one else can get a word in.

Slow 👏 hand 👏 clap 👏