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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 12:46

BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 12:41

@BisiBodi you’re going to struggle to have real answers here.

MN has the habit of having a true black and white thinking aroubd transgender. The result you’re describing? Has been pointed out many times. Posters have been shut down every time.

As for the ‘what is that woman complaining about?’. I mean seriously? You think women should be ok being harassed and verbally aggressed when out and about? 😵‍💫😵‍💫 Ha yes it’s just SOME women isn’t? More likely to be butch lesbian. I suppose they dint really matter right! How nice….

You think women should be ok being harassed and verbally aggressed when out and about?

I just can't even with the level of dishonesty and misrepresentation (some might even say Blatant Lie if they weren't trying to #bekind) that it takes to suggest that this is what we're saying. And when it comes from someone who, one assumes, believes that the answer to women being harassed is to allow self selecting men into their safe spaces...well, it's not cognitive dissonance as much as a total head transplant.

It's not working. Try honesty, decency and a little actual respect for the rights of women and you may get somewhere. This kind of dishonest hyperbole isn't going to wash any more. Truth is that it never did but sheer intimidation kept it rolling.

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 12:47

BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 12:41

@BisiBodi you’re going to struggle to have real answers here.

MN has the habit of having a true black and white thinking aroubd transgender. The result you’re describing? Has been pointed out many times. Posters have been shut down every time.

As for the ‘what is that woman complaining about?’. I mean seriously? You think women should be ok being harassed and verbally aggressed when out and about? 😵‍💫😵‍💫 Ha yes it’s just SOME women isn’t? More likely to be butch lesbian. I suppose they dint really matter right! How nice….

The 'result' is due to people being on HIGH ALERT because males have been entering female spaces.

You don't have the comprehension or critical thinking to realise WHAT...CAUSED....THIS. This, is the inevitable result of males breaching female boundaries and spaces. We told you this would happen. And you still blame us for it!

Wonderwhynosunshine · 15/05/2025 12:48

I think what Caz is getting at here is that the ruling has made it deemed okay to challenge people who you might assume are trans. This does open up ‘butch’ women to scrutiny that’s really unpleasant. Incidentally it also means that a woman can be strip searched by a male officer if he thinks she might be trans which I think most women would probably find very distressing; I certainly would. Male violence and aggression towards women is the root of the problem, but the SC ruling has opened up both trans and masculine-presenting women to scrutiny and said aggression, which they really don’t need. Nobody really thought in advance about the risk of masculine presenting women being collateral damage, I presume.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 12:51

It was an individual story that first alerted me to a problem. Only that wasn't a woman who was verbally challenged by a man and then defended by a whole load of other women so nothing bad actually happened to her. Instead it was a women who was raped by another patient in a women's hospital ward and the hospital told the police that she couldn't have been raped because there weren't any men in the ward.

Stories are powerful but you need a sense of proportion because people going on about trivia dulls the effect.

(edited to fix typos)

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 12:53

Nobody really thought in advance about the risk of masculine presenting women being collateral damage, I presume.

Actually, the law covered this issue back in 2004 and the SC ruling drew on it when fully addressing the Transman Gotcha.

Nobody in the trans lobby gave a shit about the harm done to all women by obliterating them as a sex class and destroying their spaces, as long as men benefited. They've only started worrying about masculine presenting women, almost all of whom are clearly women when you talk to them and look a bit longer, now that they've realised they can use them to undermine women's rights.

Greyskybluesky · 15/05/2025 12:54

BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 12:41

@BisiBodi you’re going to struggle to have real answers here.

MN has the habit of having a true black and white thinking aroubd transgender. The result you’re describing? Has been pointed out many times. Posters have been shut down every time.

As for the ‘what is that woman complaining about?’. I mean seriously? You think women should be ok being harassed and verbally aggressed when out and about? 😵‍💫😵‍💫 Ha yes it’s just SOME women isn’t? More likely to be butch lesbian. I suppose they dint really matter right! How nice….

What are the "real answers" @BlueTitShark ?

Panama2 · 15/05/2025 12:56

Using the term Cis 🤨 you lost me right there.

PriOn1 · 15/05/2025 12:58

Wonderwhynosunshine · 15/05/2025 12:48

I think what Caz is getting at here is that the ruling has made it deemed okay to challenge people who you might assume are trans. This does open up ‘butch’ women to scrutiny that’s really unpleasant. Incidentally it also means that a woman can be strip searched by a male officer if he thinks she might be trans which I think most women would probably find very distressing; I certainly would. Male violence and aggression towards women is the root of the problem, but the SC ruling has opened up both trans and masculine-presenting women to scrutiny and said aggression, which they really don’t need. Nobody really thought in advance about the risk of masculine presenting women being collateral damage, I presume.

Just rewind a bit.

It isn’t the ruling that caused this.

The ruling clarified that men have been breaking the law for 15 years.

The confusion was created by activists misrepresenting that law for all that time.

Those activists and men are to blame here, not the ruling, which simply confirmed that women’s rights had been incorrectly eroded.

potpourree · 15/05/2025 13:00

You can tell when someone doesn't have any argument when they fall back on trying to describe "what MN FWR is like", and not being very honest about it.

We're all saying it's bad for men to harass women. If you have a position that is different, feel free to explain it. But we know you can't.

dinglethedragon · 15/05/2025 13:00

OFGS

I am a "masculine presenting woman" - I know rather a lot of butch lesbians. Not surprisingly every single one of them is GC because they have rejected the very gender stereotypes that trans ideology is based on.

we are used to being mistaken for blokes - if we cared we would dress in a more stereotypically "feminine" way. We don't give two hoots about being occasionally "misgendered" - but we definitely don't want to share single sex facilities with actual males.

Brefugee · 15/05/2025 13:00

just saw this. CBA to read all those words. So. Just my random take...

"bathroom" really? they are toilets

Stop using the word "cis" in connection with women. I guess that photo is the woman you mentioned? she has a nice smile and looks open and friendly.

What was your question again?

Helleofabore · 15/05/2025 13:01

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 12:20

Same here. I've been rereading the first paragraph since 9 am.

this is the problem with directives such as that. OP should have gone the whole hog and stated the number of rereads.

But more importantly, I think the OP didn’t follow their own directive.

Here you go OP :

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end.

Not sure why you posted that because hypocritically, you are not discussing the topic. You seem to have set out false hopes.

andtheworldrollson · 15/05/2025 13:02

I don’t think I have ever managed to mistake a woman for a man if I have managed more than a casual glance

it’s not the clothes and hairstyle - it’s body shape, way of moving, depth of voice , Adam’s apples,

and I would argue for strip searching ( happens weekly) that the correct approach is to assume someone is who they say they are because once they are naked the lie will be apparent and then their guilt would be obvious

ThatCyanCat · 15/05/2025 13:03

You will notice that while the TRAs pontificate, lecture, dismiss, lie and Transman Gotcha as if nobody ever thought of this, they will never, ever offer third spaces as a potential solution or even - and this really is rank hypocrisy - propose that all toilets etc just become openly and honestly mixed sex and signed as such.

Now obviously having no single sex facilities would exclude many women and indeed men from public life and would be a terrible idea, but it would at least be consistent with these people's endless cries of But What About Masculine Women, who they never gave a shit about before. (You can see how none of them have read the ruling to see how the issue has been considered and addressed.)How you present and what you look like truly wouldn't matter at a if there was no option other than an openly mixed sex space.

They won't countenance either because they DO want spaces that purport to be single sex but are actually validation props for people of the opposite sex. Everything else is just noise towards the forced acceptance of men as women even and especially now that it's been clarified to be unlawful and to have always been unlawful.

Brefugee · 15/05/2025 13:04

I'm whizzing through the replies and this is presumably a quote from the OP

I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans.

get in the sea with the ageism. My mum is 84, I'm early 60s. We are 2nd wave feminists and thought we had manage to rid the world of the scourge of gender stereotypes, but you youngsters* gave it all away. Cheers. Slow handclap.

*hashtag not all you youngsters. obvs.

DeanElderberry · 15/05/2025 13:05

BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 12:41

@BisiBodi you’re going to struggle to have real answers here.

MN has the habit of having a true black and white thinking aroubd transgender. The result you’re describing? Has been pointed out many times. Posters have been shut down every time.

As for the ‘what is that woman complaining about?’. I mean seriously? You think women should be ok being harassed and verbally aggressed when out and about? 😵‍💫😵‍💫 Ha yes it’s just SOME women isn’t? More likely to be butch lesbian. I suppose they dint really matter right! How nice….

My experience of being a woman is that I have been verbally harrassed and sometimes physically assaulted by men continually since the age of 13.

They have never needed me to flash my breasts, they knew all about them.

It doesn't happen as often now that I'm old, but it can still happen. It is a central part of women's life experience. It is why we need single SEX spaces.

pearandchocolate · 15/05/2025 13:05

Wonderwhynosunshine · 15/05/2025 12:48

I think what Caz is getting at here is that the ruling has made it deemed okay to challenge people who you might assume are trans. This does open up ‘butch’ women to scrutiny that’s really unpleasant. Incidentally it also means that a woman can be strip searched by a male officer if he thinks she might be trans which I think most women would probably find very distressing; I certainly would. Male violence and aggression towards women is the root of the problem, but the SC ruling has opened up both trans and masculine-presenting women to scrutiny and said aggression, which they really don’t need. Nobody really thought in advance about the risk of masculine presenting women being collateral damage, I presume.

If a male officer wanted to strip search a woman on the basis that "I think she might be a trans woman", wouldn't he (pre SC ruling) have been equally able to try to strip search any shortish-haired woman claiming "I think he might be a trans man"?

DrDameKatyDeniseInExile · 15/05/2025 13:09

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:43

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality.

Whilst it's true that the thread has, as I predicted it probably would, descended to the standard that this sub-fora of MN is infamous for, I'm not especially concerned. I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do.

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality

At this rate I'm going to have get some sort of subscription to Irony Klaxons. Mine keep exploding.

I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do

Good heavens, you're not supposed to say it out loud. It's a bit 'What is your name?' 'Don't tell him, Pike' isn't it?

Todaywasbetter · 15/05/2025 13:10

Too try hard.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 15/05/2025 13:10

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 09:39

Normally a sign of American TRAs

Women this side of the pond are told what to believe and funded by American conservatives, but TRAs this side of the pond are definitely not influenced by American "progressives". Oh no.

mordaunt · 15/05/2025 13:13

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

I scrolled down, saw the photo, then thought “woman”. This is entirely made up.

potpourree · 15/05/2025 13:13

The "progressives" that think you can have a 'man' or 'woman' personality/vibes/ energy?

Because... that's the thing real progressives are trying to escape from.

CarrieLite · 15/05/2025 13:17

I stopped reading after you used "cis". 🙄That photo is clearly of a woman, and a very pretty one too! The bloke in question was obviously a complete dick and just looking for trouble!

MistyGreenAndBlue · 15/05/2025 13:27

Toseland · 15/05/2025 07:31

I think this is a load of old chatgpt - most men have stood well back in the battle for sex-based rights, why would they be stepping-up to protect women now?!
Activists are attempting to sow as much confusion and disruption as possible.

This. I don't actually believe a word of this story. It's clear nonsense.
It's just barely possible a man queried her for a second until he saw her face. Men are, after all, much worse at recognising sex than women are in general.
But overall, I'm inclined to think this never happened at all.

PriOn1 · 15/05/2025 13:27

Just looking back through the thread and coming to the speculation that we ancients misunderstand what it means to be trans (and thus are scared).

I suspect my daughter thinks that about me. I am truly sad to think she is naive and misguided.

As far as I can see, “what it means to be trans” includes a number of different groups of people. These include (but are not limited to):

  1. Young butch lesbians who have been made so uncomfortable about being lesbian that they have been convinced that they would be happier if they could be male. Nobody told them they couldn’t be male, so they embarked on a series of harmful medical interventions, including mastectomy, testosterone supplementation and (worst) the removal of skin from part of their body, in order to create a non-functioning, unrealistic structure in the area where men have a penis. What it means for these young women, as far as I can see, is likely to be short-term euphoria, followed by a long, slow, painful realization that changing sex was never possible and they have damaged their bodies in pursuit of an impossibility.

I realize my daughter and other activists do not want to recognize this as possible as it’s so horrific, but only time will tell whether I am correct as this mass experiment on young lesbians is irreversible and virtually untested.

  1. Young gay men. See above. Perhaps this model is a little better tested than the above version, but I suspect it should have been rarely applied and has been used on many young men who could have been happy as they were, with help to accept themselves.

  2. Older gay men who have allowed themselves to fall into a false fantasy, where attractive young military men will desire and ravish them. As a result, these men might have orchiectomy to facilitate that potential sexual encounter, at which point they will realize their error as they have now removed their ability to feel sexual arousal, having had the essential organs to achieve this removed. They will then take their revenge on women because they cannot deflect their anger towards themselves or the doctors that treated them.

  3. Fetishistic men who are aroused by cross dressing and often have additional paraphilias which lead them to be more likely to enjoy overstepping boundaries, entering women’s spaces, flashing and worse.

Now I admit, the last group scares me, in a direct way. This is not remotely irrational as these are perverted men who have been given the go-ahead by other perverted men and their ignorant and naive supporters to enter women’s spaces at will. This is not progress.

I realize I have quite a negative view of the trans experience, but I suspect most people who claim a trans identity fall into one of these groups. Obviously transactivists are going to regard what I just wrote as bigotry, but sadly, I think they’re likely wrong and naive and I’m right, even though I’d rather not be, as this whole thing has done so much damage to individuals and society.