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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
WavyRavey · 15/05/2025 12:14

Yeah the man was just an asshat

SinnerBoy · 15/05/2025 12:17

BisiBodi · Today 08:46

As to the offer to bear all, my assumption - and it is just an assumption - is she might have been so shocked by the encounter that a streak of angry defiance kicked in and she made a suggestion that - in the cold light of calm - would have been made.

Or forgot which bits to change / cut from the very similar story from America, a couple of weeks ago?

I'm not going to say that she wasn't challenged, but there seems to be a lot of whistles and bells.

Pudmyboy · 15/05/2025 12:19

Soontobe60 · 15/05/2025 06:44

You lost me at ‘cis woman’. Also, the photo you’ve posted is clearly that of a female. But nice try.

Lost me at Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding 😠

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 12:20

Pudmyboy · 15/05/2025 12:19

Lost me at Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding 😠

Same here. I've been rereading the first paragraph since 9 am.

RareGoalsVerge · 15/05/2025 12:20

CautiousLurker01 · 15/05/2025 11:58

Indeed. I am beginning to think that Specsavers and the NHS need to a male focused campaign for eye testing. There might even be a PhD or two in the offing to explore when men seem more shortsighted than their female peers.

Does this come from the same casual misogyny as "cheer up love, you'll be much prettier if you smile!"?

The logic goes:
The purpose of a woman is to make the world prettier for men
This person clearly isn't trying to conform to male ideas of how a woman should present.
Therefore this is not a woman.

thenoisiesttermagant · 15/05/2025 12:21

I really wish middle class virtue signallers would stop getting so upset about mild inconvenience to them or indeed to men with gender identities and start caring about real harms to the poorest in society, disabled women, child sexual abuse and all the other much more awful stuff happening in this country.

It's quite something to get such a sanctimonious ageist warm glow of righteousness from showing up the middle class privileged bubble you live in.

Pudmyboy · 15/05/2025 12:21

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:43

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality.

Whilst it's true that the thread has, as I predicted it probably would, descended to the standard that this sub-fora of MN is infamous for, I'm not especially concerned. I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do.

Oooh, get you! (Descended low enough for you?)

PriOn1 · 15/05/2025 12:23

DeanElderberry · 15/05/2025 11:57

Almost all the 'old ladies' I know at craft group or coffee mornings or at church or staffing the charity shops have hair a bit like that. As have I. In the fifties, sixties, seventies and even eighties, cutting your hair short was a symbol of being an adult woman not a schoolchild. Very easy to maintain, and environment friendly because it minimises water and shampoo consumption.

I'd be a bit surprised if any of them felt obliged to flash their breasts. I suspect some of the people described in the opening anecdote had drink taken at the time.

Oh no! Was there yet another breast flasher in this story? I think these accounts must all be written by male fetishists, even if fronted by women (real or otherwise).

Did we also have tampon distribution? Asking as I’m close to full house on my TRA fetishist bingo card.

Zebedee999 · 15/05/2025 12:24

Soontobe60 · 15/05/2025 06:44

You lost me at ‘cis woman’. Also, the photo you’ve posted is clearly that of a female. But nice try.

Yep anyone talking about "cis women" as opposed to "women" are clearly bonkers and best ignored.

MellowCritic · 15/05/2025 12:25

Op whereas I understand your point this doesn't cancel out the need for women only spaces. Sorry if I have misunderstood your point and answered incorrectly.

dimsiaradcymraeg · 15/05/2025 12:26
  1. Can we drop “cis”
  2. Caz is clearly a woman
  3. Some people are just dicks, which he was. I have experienced enough dickery over the years to realise you can’t reason with stupid. You’ll never know his motives; wasting any energy on “why” in this situation is pointless waste of time. You’re likely overthinking it when, to quote my 13 year old’ “It’s not that deep” and it just happened to be Caz that he targeted. A few seconds before or after and some other poor woman might have been the target of his attention. I pity his wife who had to go home with him.
Justme56 · 15/05/2025 12:26

These stories always seem to involve women who are super supportive of allowing TW in to the ladies loos. They are never women who think female spaces should be for females.

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/05/2025 12:27

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 08:43

You have a somewhat shaky, if unsurprising, grip on reality.

Whilst it's true that the thread has, as I predicted it probably would, descended to the standard that this sub-fora of MN is infamous for, I'm not especially concerned. I'm perfectly comfortable that the thread has done what it was intended to do.

‘Done what it was intended to do.’

That line sounds very familiar. Are you the new incarnation of that bot that was around last month, OP?

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 15/05/2025 12:28

Duckyfondant · 15/05/2025 08:43

I just can't imagine in this situation offering to show the aggressor my tits. Telling him to fuck off, yes, but strip off, no. Nor can I imagine the alleged comments of the other women. I can believe that masculine women are occasionally challenged but no, I don't believe every detail this particular woman gives.

This is what got me! never, on the multiple occasions when men have been aggressive towards me, have I thought of showing my tits as a way to deescalate a situation.

dinglethedragon · 15/05/2025 12:31

Justme56 · 15/05/2025 12:26

These stories always seem to involve women who are super supportive of allowing TW in to the ladies loos. They are never women who think female spaces should be for females.

indeed - they could use a few of these gallant blokes down Brighton way to support the brave women challenging the madness there...

BloominNora · 15/05/2025 12:31

Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!

I don't understand what she is trying to say here.

Hoodies and jeans and perhaps boots are not inherently 'masucline' they are just not stereotypically feminine. Is she saying trans women can't wear hoodies, jeans and boots and they all have to adhere to gender stereotypes?

Its almost like an admission that it is performative! (and is incredibly sexist - no?)

Fraaances · 15/05/2025 12:33

Men - invading women’s safe places regardless of how they identify.

AgnesX · 15/05/2025 12:33

"Older cis community"? Oh for heavens sake get a grip 🙄

Anything that might have been said is somewhere in the weeds. You want to influence and keep people onside you don't patronise them.

Motnight · 15/05/2025 12:34

ArabellaScott · 15/05/2025 12:20

Same here. I've been rereading the first paragraph since 9 am.

If only you had access to a clever man to help you move forwards 😬

aylis · 15/05/2025 12:36

BloominNora · 15/05/2025 12:31

Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!

I don't understand what she is trying to say here.

Hoodies and jeans and perhaps boots are not inherently 'masucline' they are just not stereotypically feminine. Is she saying trans women can't wear hoodies, jeans and boots and they all have to adhere to gender stereotypes?

Its almost like an admission that it is performative! (and is incredibly sexist - no?)

If we must assume that anyone 'dressed like a woman' is a woman then how can there be any complaints at anyone thinking she is a man if she is, by her own standards, dressed like a man? It would be entirely consistent with her own views where clothes are the standard.

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 15/05/2025 12:38

This is a story about a man entering a women's only space and being aggressive towards a woman.

We should totally do something to stop that happening again.... hmn.

BloominNora · 15/05/2025 12:38

@aylis - quite! She's tied herself in one too many knots!

No change there then!

BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 12:41

@BisiBodi you’re going to struggle to have real answers here.

MN has the habit of having a true black and white thinking aroubd transgender. The result you’re describing? Has been pointed out many times. Posters have been shut down every time.

As for the ‘what is that woman complaining about?’. I mean seriously? You think women should be ok being harassed and verbally aggressed when out and about? 😵‍💫😵‍💫 Ha yes it’s just SOME women isn’t? More likely to be butch lesbian. I suppose they dint really matter right! How nice….

BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 12:42

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 15/05/2025 12:38

This is a story about a man entering a women's only space and being aggressive towards a woman.

We should totally do something to stop that happening again.... hmn.

The nan wasn’t in a woman space though. He was in the lobby, like everyone else.

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 15/05/2025 12:45

I'm a woman and I shave my head. Every now and then, the following ensues:

Random stranger: "These are the women's toilets; the men's are over there"

Me: "I am a woman"

Random stranger: (taking a better look at me) "Aah, sorry: my mistake".

Me: "No worries"

Strangely enough the stewards at the many football matches I go to ALWAYS sex me correctly. But then, I'm approaching them and they're looking at my face.

In any event, what's the big deal? Someone very occasionally mistakes me for a man. So? No harm done. Nobody has demanded I prove it. They can see I'm female when they take a proper look.