Why do they hate us so much?

[janos79]

Why do men who identify as trans and want to live as women not actually want to listen to women or respect women's wishes or the law that protects us?

I understand that some women support the wishes of transwomen to use women's spaces or be in women's sports but it seems the as majority of women do not and even if they did surely if even a third or a quarter of women objected to males in female spaces that should be enough to veto any man from entering.

I worked in a cinema in the past where I had to share toilets and dressing rooms with a man who identified as a transwoman and I always found it really uncomfortable. I am not saying they tried to attack me but I ended up just feeling like I couldn't really use those spaces freely unless they happened to be off those days and if you said anything it was you who ended up in trouble and I know that I wasn't the only one who felt really uncomfortable with him in our spaces.

I was really pleased that the clarification of the EA by the supreme court was now going to protect women from these situations and I hope that will be the case going forward. However when I look at the press and see the sheer anger and rage from men who are still determined to use women's spaces, when I hear how they talk about the women who object to them in their spaces and how much vitriol they seem to have I just do not understand it.

If I were a man and women were saying actually we would rather you didn't come in here it makes us uncomfortable I'd be mortified and wouldn't want to ignore their boundaries. But instead these men who say they love women so much they want to be one seem to become so angry, they call women awful sexist names, threaten rape and violence.

Why do they hate us so much?

Male privilege assuming they can do whatever they want and women will accept it. I could be kind and say they don’t realise women don’t like it, but they’d have to be living under a rock not to realise. This also covers men claiming they ‘pass’ just because no woman has ever challenged them in a female space.

Or, the sexual thrill or power trip of doing it and knowing it makes women uncomfortable or pisses them off.

I expect quite few want to be challenged so they can get all affronted, plus it affirms how bigoted and unkind women are.
And gives them an excuse to be angry at women.

Because for a large proportion of them it’s a fetish. For some it’s about degradation - they think it’s humiliating to be seen as a woman and we just exist to be penetrated. Others get off on forcing us to undress in front of them or see them undressed

my comment will probably be deleted but it’s a fact that a proportion are sexually motivated

Because some men hate women and

See us as shit, penisless versions of men

View us as nothing more than vessels to provide a service..

See us as desirable when we're within the age they consider fuckable and worth nothing after that point (though they expect older women to provide care for their elderly relatives etc)

See us as something to be talked over or condescended to.

Etc etc

And gender ideology is just all that distilled, exemplified by Andrea Long Chu's definition of a woman, being in his eyes,

"Femaleness is a universal sex defined by self-negation… I’ll define as female any psychic operation in which the self is sacrificed to make room for the desires of another…[The] barest essentials [of femaleness are] an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes"

@Waitwhat23 "Femaleness is a universal sex defined by self-negation… I’ll define as female any psychic operation in which the self is sacrificed to make room for the desires of another…[The] barest essentials [of femaleness are] an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes"

This was written by a man who identifies as trans? Its possibly the vilest most misogynistic thing written about women I have ever read. He's an award winning writer I see as well. Why is their hatred of women so feted and promoted by the establishment?

"the self is sacrificed to make room for the desires of another"

I guess that is really how they see us, are we just a void to them, not even human. Its so hateful and violent.

It’s like we’re headed for some kind of weird dystopia where as women are starting after centuries to make gains for an equal footing with men and making their names in business, sport etc, some men still need to subjugate them somehow and muscle into that. And what makes it worse is so many of them are a sort of parody of what they think a woman is or should be. Often wear really low cut tops and legs out always. And very scary with corporates starting to buy into eg that Dylan Moran Nike sportswear with Nike choosing him over existing inspiring biological women to advertise sports bras!

A quote from an article I link to on another thread might give an indication

'The Dutch researchers hypothesized that many of the difficulties of adult transitioners were caused by their failure to “pass” as the opposite sex...'

The need gender confused men have access to women's spaces might be tied into their need to 'pass'.

@TheywontletmehavethenameIwant Ah so they basically know they don't pass and are not women so they require the whole world and especially women to sacrifice their own needs and lie to make their fantasy more real to them?

Isn't that massively unfair on women? I can kind of see that they could ask women but it looks to me like women say no and rather than accepting that they are even more hateful towards women as a result.

I know in my experience it was true that the male I worked with was actually very male and often quite aggressive and intimidating so that I think people ended up just going along with him or avoiding him to keep the peace.

@MoominMai Yes it was my experience as well that they were very over sexualised version of what a woman was and also, he was a lot older and most of the other staff but he dressed in clothing more like what a teenager would wear.

If you really really want to be something you're not, and can never be, you don't tend to love the people who are. Especially if you have convinced yourself they are gatekeeping it from you.

Some more examples.

I'm as glad as anyone about the SC ruling.

It is true though that the highly sexist and paternalist individual doctors who ran the gender services years ago, required the men who came to them for psychiatric care and referral for surgery to do things like use women's toilets to 'prove' both that they were committed to treatment and that they would get away with doing so. In some cases there would be discussion of whether they were pretty enough to pass. There was of course no consideration by either party of what women might need or want.

There is more than one reason why the GRA reform push wanted to get away from medicalisation, and I agree with the strand about getting away from the sexist medical past buried within treatment assumptions. I would see the better way forward as breaking down homophobic barriers about masculinity, and that might be easier now that women's spaces are off the table.

I'm sorry you had to share a changing room and toilet with a man op. While there is a lot of focus on men being actively dangerous towards women the discomfort felt by most women in a space were they are vulnerable and a man is present is often ignored. It's really important that women shouldn't be forced to suppress their instinctive dislike of these situations.

As others have said - mail privilege and the desire to dominate...but for some the fact that we have what we seek.

Oh yes, they are definitely vile people, a lot of the medical studies seem to be around people who seem to suffer from genuine problems, but most of the high profile 'performance' trans are a completely different kettle of fish.

Someone should do a study on this type of 'trans' so their fetish can be studied and a proper assessment of their pathology can be made.

I think it's just pure narcissm, combined with sexism.
It's easier to keep doing what they want and viliify women who say no than acknowlege that women are actual people who are hurt by their actions.
Their egos can't handle the idea that they might be in the wrong.
They feel personally attacked by any woman saying no because she has the gall to stand in their way of something they feel is their right. So they attack back in 'self defence'.
Same old patriarchy and male entitlement.
I don't think it's a lot more complicated than that.

Strongly expressed emotions garner the most attention.

I doubt there is a generalised hatred but more the frustration of people who are baffled that women are not prepared to participate in an immersive fiction that actively harms women’s privacy, dignity, safety and ability to participate in a range of activities.

This is being interpreted in hyperbolic ways by those who have their own reasons for wanting others to accept their distorted reality. And they may even consider deceiving others to their own political ends to be justifiable. It also attracts those who want a cover for misogyny.

Simply because men DO NOT understand that we NEED privacy. To take one example - they pee in front of each other, and most of them don't have any scruples about peeing in front of me (us).
But we understand privacy. I would NEVER allow anyone to see me use the toilet, and so many boys/men just cannot accept that. (It's common knowledge among my friends that I dumped a boy for telling me I should let him see me pee.)
Sorry - 1 example. But it illustrates that men don't think we should be allowed to do ANYTHING without them breathing down our necks.
Also, they're suspicious of us - they think that if we disappear into the Ladies together we're plotting to kill them! (Which pretty much shows what they get up to in the Gents!).

Yikes!

*male privilege

Because we so no.
It really is that simple.

But even if they have a genuine medical issue should that give them the right to enter women's spaces when they are not women? Should other forms of treatment be available so they can learn sex acceptance without trampling over the safety and dignity of women?

My trans friends are scared. Because now they will have to use the male bathrooms when they clearly look like a woman. So I think it’s wrong to assume that trans women are predators.
Just offering an alternative perspective, not interested in any arguments.

No your right, I'm not saying that even the 'genuine' people should have any special treatment.

I don't think there is such a thing as 'trans', it's a maladaptive copying mechanism that doesn't work. I would prefer to see some sort of therapy be developed so that they can be helped to find a way to accept the reality of what they are.

I don't think the 'performative' trans want therapy, because it's not a copying mechanism it's a deliberate choice men make because they get sexual satisfaction from it.

Just offering an alternative perspective, not interested in any arguments.

Oh, we know. You must yearn for the glory days of 'no debate'.

I think there’s a lot of men with a fetish who don’t understand that it’s a fetish, they think the sexual arousal they get from pretending to be women is actually some kind of joyous experience of authenticity. Being male for them carries memories of trauma and it’s easier to escape to an imaginary persona than face the pain.

This means there’s a bunch of men who think women are gatekeeping womanhood out of bigotry and spite and refusing to let them join what they think is some kind of special club. They don’t understand the fear women have because they are not women so they just think women are being mean.

If you pile on body dysmorphia there’s a lot of men who take hormones and actually think they start to pass as women, albeit in need of a lot of makeup and hair removal.

In a normal world they would be given support and counselling but they are being massively failed.

They’re men, who have been taught from a young age that the world is theirs for the taking…men never had to fight for their spaces, or their place in public life, it was just a given. So they’ve taken that socialisation and put it into practice.

Helen Joyce wrote a brilliant article about this a few years ago, sadly I can’t find it.
Many TW who are really autogynephiles - for them we are the focus; they want what we have and require our validation and participation in their fetish. Other men are largely irrelevant in this. Also throw in a dose of narcissistic rage when their fantasy is interrupted.