Statement from the Society of Radiographers re Mammograms

[Mollyollydolly]

The Society of Radiographers have issued the following statement after the news story this week.
Women are already self excluding because of the coverage, women will probably die.
They have fucked up massively.
I have no words for the damage they've done.
I'd really love to know which individual proposed it in the name of diversity and inclusion.
So angry about it.
And to all the women on here who were posting they didn't care who did it, this is the result. Women self excluding.

"Recent media coverage about the role of men in mammography has caused concern for people and we want to provide reassurance and set the record straight.
The coverage followed a motion passed at the Society of Radiographers’ Annual Delegates Conference (ADC). ADC provides members with the opportunity to help shape the strategic direction of the Society. Each region and country propose motions for debate, which are voted on by delegates at the conference.
The motion in question asked the Society to explore how we could support fair access to mammography as a career, as mammography in breast screening is currently restricted to female staff.
It does not change NHS policy, and it does not mean that only male mammographers will be employed.
We understand that this coverage has led to distress and confusion, with some contacting screening services or cancelling appointments, concerned that they will be having a man perform their mammogram. We are deeply sorry for the concern this has caused and are working to provide clear and accurate information.
No changes have been made to who carries out breast screening by this motion. The breast screening experience remains:

• A specialist called a mammographer will take breast screening mammograms.
• The mammographer will be female.
• They will explain what will happen at each stage, and you can ask any questions you may have.
• Radiographers and mammographers in NHS services continue to ensure that patient care is delivered safely, sensitively, and with respect for personal, cultural, and religious needs.

Breast screening is a vital part of early cancer detection and saves lives every year. We recognise how important it is that women feel safe, respected and informed when accessing these services. Protecting trust in the screening programme is essential, and we are working with our NHS colleagues to support this. The motion passed at ADC will now go to the Society’s UK Council to decide whether any further work should be done. If it is taken forward, this will involve detailed discussions with NHS bodies, patient groups and service providers. While the Society can advocate for change on behalf of members, it does not have the authority to change NHS policy. Our intention is to support a professional, inclusive workforce while always protecting the rights and dignity of patients. Mammography screening services will continue to prioritise compassionate, people-centred care. Further updates will be shared when appropriate." https://www.sor.org/news/mammography/public-statement-mammography

@@whatsit84
What a thicko ignorant comment

I came on to say the same as LonginesPrime said - this must have been prompted because transwomen are no longer legally considered women for this same-sex service. From the issues, highlighted by pp, in Brighton, it seems clear (and unsurprising) that the NHS has already been allowing transwomen to perform screening mammograms, and someone, somewhere is trying to find a way to allow this to continue.

For those saying they don’t care, I summarise some points already made:

• with small numbers of mammographers in each area, hiring 1 man will probably increase the proportion of male mammographer above the proportion of women who find it acceptable, worsening the service for other women (and probably leaving the male mammographers somewhat under-employed)
• this could lead to women feeling pressured to accept a male or be seen to be ‘putting their life at risk’
• training male mammographers takes away training places for women
• there is no indication that there is a shortage of women who want these jobs, just an ‘unfairness’ that men can’t do them
• if men do the job, they will need a chaperone, increasing the cost of the service

As we have already seen, this will lead to women self-excluding, and, while I am not suggesting for a minute that most men in the nhs are abusers, this role is obviously likely to attract those who are

Says somone who has clearly never had the senstitivity or awareness to understand what the years of discussion around the dignity and privacy of one's sex were about.

I'm a midwife. I could have learned sonography but I find the part where you discover something wrong with the baby harrowing in my normal role (like when you listen in and can't find a heartbeat), so sonography holds no attraction for me.

However, I enjoy "check ups" generally. I like making sure the baby is fine, and then acting in a timely way when you discover they're not. So I like being a midwife.

I can understand why a radiographer might not want to perform that type of screening. The frequency of discovering and having to communicate bad news will increase.

Yes. Mammograms aren’t for people at large, they’re for women, yet even in a statement like this they can’t actually fucking say it 😡

I'm a radiographer by training (slightly different job role now). Here are my thoughts:

• I don't think mammography is really advertised much as a specialism to go into. Also there is a radiographer shortage generally not just for mammography.
• The Society of Radiographers are completely brainwashed by gender woo unfortunately. Obviously male middle aged patients have to be asked if they could be pregnant before performing a scan.
• The key point they should have stressed is currently mammographers do have to be female (although I didn't know that there might be trans women and that's why they may have put this motion forward)
• i also do not trust a man who wants this career
• it does sound to me from what they have said here they aren't giving up on the motion yet which is worrying!

The trouble with this is it adds a whole new layer of complication and bureaucracy and potential knock on effects on the service

You would need to inform people that screening may be performed by a male mammographer and they have a choice there.
You already know that even the idea being floated in the press this week was enough to cause concern and put some women off attending screening -its not popular
Screening services also need to make sure their info is understood by the widest possible range of people - this includes those with learning difficulties, poor literacy, English as a second language - there has been a lot of work on the issues of unclear or ambigous language eg its effect on engagement with services and screening uptake. Screening also needs as a process to be made as easy as possible to attend and engage with. Behaviour around screening tests is very human, complex and can not always be described as rational: - increasing complexity of systems and the demand for more effort for a test/appointment or a higher level of possible discomfort can reduce the chances of some people engaging in something that very often doesnt seem urgent and has no clear direct personal benefit if they are asymptomatic.

An unambigous Female only service is much easier to understand than so, we run two separate lists based on your preference, choose here and people are less likely to find booking onerous/make choices. You are also less likely to get dropouts on the day when faced with a male mammographer: perhaps people turning up for appointments having not read/understood the situation and ending up with a male mammographer, making a mistake on forms/online booking or even those who think they will be OK with it but on attending their appointment realise they dont feel comfortable.

Then you need some way of managing/scheduling work rotas and appointments to run separate lists for male and female mammographers- so that needs admin and coordination time. You already know that many will not accept a male mammography: so you don't know if you will be able to effectively fill their lists or if they will end up being underutilized.
Employing males has other knock on effects on the service - due to the scheduling/acceptance issue you cant deploy a male mammographer in the same way as his female counterpart, he wont be able to do unplanned cross cover, sick leave and so on because his list needs to be confirmed in advance, he cant just sub in interchangably for a colleague. So despite employing an extra mammograper you are likely to end up with some oversubscibed (female mammographer lists), potentially undersubscribed (male mammographer lists) and a reduced flexibility in your cover overall. Thus wait times, backlogs and cancellations for those who want an all female service are likely to worsen.
It could also be seen as a form of discrimination eg offering a worse service (longer waiting times) to those who are unable or unwilling to accept a male mammographer - am sure this could be open to challanges.

Yes a jobs for boys proposal

Language :

Society of Radiographers

It does not change NHS policy and it does not mean that only male mammographers the will be employed.

• Radiographers and mammographers in NHS services continue to ensure that patient care is delivered safely, sensitively, and with respect for personal, cultural, and religious needs.

Split of professional role from the whole.
Not our members or
Radiographers who are mammographers or
mammographers in the screening service
Its 2 groups in NHS services

It is currently a career path which is not open to men on the basis of their sex.

So as a mixed sex organisation they are proposing to start a process which would result in the NHS review the woman only hire criteria

The coverage followed a motion passed at the Society of Radiographers’ Annual Delegates Conference (ADC). ADC provides members [mixed sex but whats the sex ratio if mammography is excluded ] with the opportunity to help shape the strategic direction [by opening up the role to males which reduces female jobs] of the Society. Each region and country propose motions for debate, which are voted on by delegates [turkeys voting for Christmas will happen because the "benchmark" of getting women into the workforce is that women can do the job as well as a man so voting for "female only" downgrades the "value" of the career choice which is one reason nursing wants to attract men into the profession] at the conference.

The motion in question asked the Society to explore how we could support fair access [ by 50% of staff being male] to mammography as a career, as mammography in breast screening [women in a woman only service as the UK do not screen for male breast cancer] is currently restricted to female staff [ to remove a barrier to screening as the service is aimed to screen the maximum number of women to detect a treatable cancer]

It does not change NHS policy [ rather it seeks to change the hire policy in an organisation where the "professional" staff are placed above the user] and it does not mean that only male [yet with 50% male staffing on day shift by appointment career path hospital and mobile scanning services could end up with a 100% team of male staff ] mammographers of the will be employed.

So, here we have a form of reverse ferret from a captured organisation. It's not really a reverse though, is it?

This started a few years ago at peak woke time with the 'inclusive' pregnancy guidelines which removed all mention of women, and this is a natural extension.

They still have the aim of advocating for men's careers in the symptomatic service, as this statement is aimed towards screening only. So, they're making sure that men can be included in the upper career brackets that have been traditionally only open to women. It's about advancing men's rights, as a PP has said.

The timing of all this seems to be more and more suspicious, and seems to be making sure that there's no female only places within healthcare. It's the vanguard. And yes, now Clare's letter makes more sense. Brighton!

They say that they don't make NHS policy. I beg to differ. The Society of Radiographers brought in the 'inclusive' pregnancy guidelines, meaning that, as a PP has mentioned, that everyone is asked if they are pregnant before an x-ray - whether they are male or not. Every radiographer has to do this. They made this NHS policy.

And no, radiographers don't have to be involved with them, and female radiographers might start to think that their trade union money might be better off elsewhere. They don't give a bugger about women's rights, clearly, and are more interested in appeasing menz hurty feelz.

@AnSolas yes, you're so right - changing the hiring policy. No female only spaces for you! Thank you for that breakdown of the language- if you look clearly their intentions are still there, aren't they?

There aren’t any separate ‘queues’. There is no ‘long wait’ for a mammogram. A man would not be able to operate alone in a room with a woman, intimately handling her breasts. Think about it-the fact that you’d need 2 members of staff in the room instead of one will not lead to shorter waiting times!

I agree. This motion is just opening up discussions of options for this type flexibility.

This is the SoR contact form.

https://www.sor.org/about/society-of-radiographers/contact-us

I doubt they get much contact from the public normally, so they will probably notice if they suddenly get a flood of WTFs.

Well yes - I noticed on one of their Facebook posts that someone had commented "this should never have been discussed outside of breast imaging"
That's a very telling remark, isn't it?

Whilst I prefer a female to do the mammo, I have had a mastectomy followed by delayed re construction. This involved being examined and photographed by at least 2 male surgeons/medics, they had to get up close and personal and drew lines all over my breasts. There was always a female chaperone. I would think there is probably more male breast cancer surgeons than female.

A Jobs for the boys option which cost the State more money by downgrading the service which exists for the sole function of saving womens lives?

Men get breast cancer too the service is only provided to women as its not cost effective to screen men.

Woman or man?
The cost of training is the same.
The cost of staffing should be the same.

The cost to the State is higher when running an ineffective screening programme so if uptake fell as 50% of the staff were men the State needs to run the numbers again and see if the service is providing value for money.

So looking at the cost which results in higher deaths rates in women of preventable deaths and in women in younger age groups and the ripple effect that has in society.

Higher treatment costs due to late detection which leads to with lower sucess rates when looking at the womans life span reduction which again has a ripple effect.

So why should the system introduce a blockage to the screening function when the aim is not employment rather screening as many women as possible.

The organisation is not proposing more roles just more role access for men in a medical field which is made less effective by having a man in the role.

Why is the organisation proposing to spend money on a person who will be less effective and less skilled over time?

The role is single sex to meet the need and want of the core person, a woman.

So a highly trained woman who can attend any appointment will encompass the full range of women who attend is the best value for money option.

I can't believe they hadn't even run it by NHS Breast Screening.

When it appeared as a news story, it totally looked like a planned press release for a policy change, with little videos of women who had had breast cancer saying they were fine with it none of whom were the ethnic minority who would obviously not be fine with it

And now surprise, it was nothing of the sort.

There's no wait though? There aren't any shortages? So what's the reason for this?

Men's Career Rights and removing female only spaces. Are you OK with that?

There is no long wait for mammography screening. In my area it’s done in mobile units and you get an invitation when your mammogram is due for the dates they’re in the area. It’s a small space with 2 radiographers who swap round regularly between reception/waiting/changing (all one area) and the mammogram room. There is a sign on the entrance saying only women are allowed in. It’s very much a small, intimate women only space.
There would be little room for a chaperone therefore you’d be in room alone with a male radiographer. Since they swap round you’d be welcomed into the very small changing area by a man.
I could see this set up easily putting some women off from going along for their breast screening.

There will have been a good reason the breast screening service was set up as female only. There needs to be good evidence those reasons are no longer valid in order to change it without it causing a drop in uptake of mammography screening and costing lives.

It was very much planned, wasn't it? As someone on the other thread said - there's never been news stories on anything else done by the Society of Radiographers at any of their conferences! Why now? Why this one?

"Why are you so bothered about men doing it?"

Because TUBE was so common there was an acronym for it.
Times change but human nature doesn't.

This is what I think too.

They are trying to find a fudge to allow someone to keep their job rather than uphold the rights of women (and prevent themselves from being found out and being liable for past cases where a male has illegally been carrying out mammograms)

The motion will be pushed through to save their own necks and budget and to hell with how women feel.

I do not trust them now for this attempt to hide their shit and then brush it as if women are being prudes.

This situation should never have arisen in the first place and it's not on women to fix.

We already discussed how this won't work for women who can't fill in their own forms because of disability or language barrier on the other thread.

The stories in the media are a reaction to the initial (deleted then replaced later) press release from the Society of Radiographers, so how can reporting on a conference motion that the SoR themselves flagged to the press be "shit stirring"?
Or were women not supposed to even know this was happening until it was all implemented and too late to do anything about?
There is no shortage of mammographers or extended wait times in the screening programme, even if there were then recruiting and managing the logistics of chaperoning male practitioners would be costly and reduce the success of the screening programme.
So why are the SoR doing this? And why are they so unhappy that it has been reported about, why do they think that it is a problem that patients now know about this proposal?

And who administers all this preference? That's at least another admin worker employed, along with more chaperones, as someone on the other thread pointed out. How is this cost-effective?

Again, there's no shortage - or certainly no data to back up the claim that there is a shortage. No-one is waiting through lack of staff, no-one has produced concrete figures.