Pulled up at work for ‘trans views’

[wherearethemarsbars]

Recently, a colleague at my company has declared that they are ‘agender’ and asexual and has asked to be addressed as ‘they’. As a result, my company decided to arrange a trans training session where some trans people came in to talk to us all about gender and terminology etc etc.

During this session, I was asked to describe my experience of living as a ‘cis woman’. I said that I didn’t have any experience of living as a cis woman, only as a woman so I couldn’t comment. I was pressed further and didn’t say much, only that the term ‘cis woman’ doesn’t align with my personal beliefs of what a woman is, so therefore declined to comment any further.

A few days later, I was pulled up on this by management who said that my behaviour was not acceptable and that I should be making an effort to be inclusive to everyone. I’m a bit baffled. Can I get others’ thoughts on this topic?

Yes everyone should be nice to everyone

and that includes accepting that women in particular often don’t have a gender or would like to fully reject gender. It means not calling people names they find offensive. Especially names that are lies.

I guess it’s hard for a man, and especially one who feels themselves transgender, to understand why a woman who might feel her gender is masculine rather than feminine would nevertheless not see that as important

because women are hurt because of their sex and without lots of self harm ( surgery, hormones and a lot of luck ) they will always be seen a treated as women - as second class citizens whose opinions are wrong

indeed the typical woman might be inclined to say .. if we did away with gender and let everyone be themselves without any judgement based on sex the world would be a better place. Wear what you like, call yourself what you like. Don’t be presumptuous enough to think that means you know how others feel.

@wherearethemarsbars it seems that you are being unlawfully discriminated against because of your belief.

rhe training session setting out an opposing ideological belief was mandatory (i think from you OP)? I can’t imagine a scenario where (for example) a Muslim colleague is forced to sit through a talk on Christianity and why it’s very important? Or even colleagues being offered the equivalent mandatory training on being gender critical?

then when you very politely said something which showed you don’t believe in that ideology, you have been reprimanded (subjected to a detriment).

have there been other incidents - training, posters, events, declarations following the Supreme Court judgement?

it would be a pretty low value claim as it stands but it’s discrimination nonetheless. And if you claim now you are also protected from further victimisation.

I might say something like

”I absolutely support people being addressed as they want to be and treated with respect. Personally I have a complicated relationship with gender as my experience of it as a woman in the workplace has been that it invites assumptions and expectations I don’t feel comfortable being placed on me. I prefer being addressed as a woman, based on my sex class. I feel uncomfortable with gender identities when my experience with them has been they are something imposed on me rather than an internal conviction or sense of self. Being pushed to rebrand something I’ve experienced as oppression as identify is unpleasant and alienating. I try to support/include other people in a way that is genuine to me rather than symbolic. I’m open to discussion but I feel like real inclusion has to make room for different ways of engaging with gender identities.

Seems to me your identity of who you are (well fact) is not being respected.

I have no problem using people preferred pronouns etc, live & let live, but that must go both ways. If you don’t want to be referred to as cis then that should also be respected

You may have missed a trick; you could have just said that you don't identify as a cis woman.

Too late now but I would have told them "how dare you assume my gender?", flounced and spent the afternoon with a coffee and a good book.

@IzzyHandsIsMySpiritAnimal Alright then, you sound pretty woke. So why are you appropriating Native American culture by using the term 'spirit animal' with regards to a fictional character in your username? If you're that worried about equal opportunities you should know Native Americans have still got the shitty end of the stick even now.

Personally I would make a complaint about the person giving the course calling you cis, if you have a union talk to them about it

I hate this kind of labelling and bullying. It's bloody 'identity politics', isn't it? It just loves to divide people.

Just because you questioned a label given to you by someone else, OP, you are then assumed to hold certain views (all a big stretch and total assumption) which you yourself have never expressed.

This is why I supported the National Trust volunteers who refused to wear rainbow lanyards. I would too. It's come to something when refusal to wear a badge/lable/slogan is assumed to imply that you oppose that particular cause or viewpoint. I'm not homophobic in the slightest - and I'm offended that not wearing a rainbow lanyard would make anyone assume I was!!

I'm a veggie (for example) and I have other beliefs but I wouldn't wear a badge or anything else to advertise them. I just wouldn't - and I'd be furious with anyone who tried to make me.

I'd suggest sharing this information with both Sex Matters and the EHRC OP. I suspect they'd be very interested, and they'd be best placed to guide you on how to reply, because you have legal rights.

And if you don't believe that people can be a different sex than how they were born, there is no such thing as "cis". If the trans population want to put themselves into some category, I don't gas. I do NOT choose to be put into a category and just because the trans community want to put me there, they cannot. MY choice, not theirs.

I completely agree with your views, the term ‘Cis women’ is no longer relevant as there is only one type of woman, the others are trans women

Why should biological women now need to use the term ‘Cis’ to define themselves, there are women and trans women, that’s it

I would challenge management on this by e-mail, if they want to be inclusive then they need to recognise and take into account the views of women as well as trans women

The OP HAS a gender. It is called WOMAN. Don't be disingenuous and silly.

Are you required to ask men if they could be pregnant ?😳I know nurses who are vehemently opposed to asking this question & indeed they say they are highly embarrassed. Do the latest findings deem this to be inappropriate now 🤔

Yes, ask them to put it in writing, and you should also put it in writing the incident - keep it factual, what you were asked and what you replied.

Then both you and your manager sign the note after reviewing it.

In a previous job an incident happened where I was at no fault legally or morally however my employer decided to bully me over it.

I simply called for a meeting with my union rep, put everything in writing with my employer and present and both signing everything that was discussed/ occurred.

Well after it all got reviewed he got sacked!

What an absolute pain in the arse. Why can't people be left alone to get on with their work??? Typical that it was NHS. Thankfully where I work we are not all expected the wear rainbow lanyards, put our pronouns in our emails etc etc and not one person (yet!) has called me Cis. We have the usual eye rolling training online and I soon realised I had to put the most ridiculous answer down not the ones I felt like replying.!

If 'trans' means you don't identify with the gender that is generally assumed to match your sex and 'cis' is the opposite, then it means that you do identify with gender that matches your sex.

Since feminists believe that gender is basically another word for sexist stereotypes/roles, to call a woman cis is highly offensive as it suggests that we identify with and accept our own oppression.

Cis is not a neutral term at all.

Just like trans people, feminists also do not identify with the gender that matches their sex. The difference is that we don't think that means we need to pretend to change our sex, we think it means that we should try to eliminate gender as far as possible.

Much as I loathe Toby Young,
join the Free Speech Union
and let them give you backup

The world has gone bonkers! I’m actually speechless

Definitely get it in writing. You could preface it with "I'm afraid I'm still unclear about how I went wrong at the recent training session. I'd very much like to have the position explained to me in writing so I can fully understand."

Surely if they can chose how they are labeled you can chose how you are. You didnt comment on your trans views you commented on how you were addressed. This is madness ...

The NHS has completely lost the plot and tied themselves in knots over sexualities and religion I heard this morning that they were trying to recruit existing staff to become Muslims.

This.

I hear you; I don't like the term cis either. And the language policing is maddening, too. But speaking as someone who needs their job, I would have just toed the party line, as I have done at work in the past. A few years ago, I put my pronouns in my email signature, which I think is ridiculous, but I did it to fit in and be on-trend with the company policy. This is the world we live in. These culture wars will go down in history like the McCarthy era. I like my job and there's not many of them around, and I don't want to go through the huge stress of finding another job, so I just play the game. That's what I would have done in your situation, because the trouble just isn't worth it. And most jobs will be the same.