Pulled up at work for ‘trans views’

[wherearethemarsbars]

Recently, a colleague at my company has declared that they are ‘agender’ and asexual and has asked to be addressed as ‘they’. As a result, my company decided to arrange a trans training session where some trans people came in to talk to us all about gender and terminology etc etc.

During this session, I was asked to describe my experience of living as a ‘cis woman’. I said that I didn’t have any experience of living as a cis woman, only as a woman so I couldn’t comment. I was pressed further and didn’t say much, only that the term ‘cis woman’ doesn’t align with my personal beliefs of what a woman is, so therefore declined to comment any further.

A few days later, I was pulled up on this by management who said that my behaviour was not acceptable and that I should be making an effort to be inclusive to everyone. I’m a bit baffled. Can I get others’ thoughts on this topic?

I would make a complaint on the grounds of harassment based on your gender critical beliefs. GC beliefs are protected legally and your employer is acting very badly.

OP, if you employer is struggling with the SC ruling and their own deep misogyny to the point they genuinely can’t understand how a biological women is protected in law, ask them whether they think it would be appropriate to ask a wheelchair user to explain to their colleagues in a training session how it’s actually quite nice to have a sit down all the time, or whether it would be ok to put a black person on the spot in a training and make them describe their “experience of being black” for the benefit of colleagues who aren’t black.

👌

Nothing.

Woman (look it up) means an adult female human being - it covers the not being trans issue

Yes it does. If you start talking about cis-women and transwomen you turn them into subsets of women and in turn 'woman' becomes an identity rather than simply one's sex. If woman is an identity (cis v trans) and male people can be women what is this based on? Essentially it's based on feelings and stereotypes of femininity.
If I called myself a 'cis'woman to differentiate myself from 'trans'women I'm saying that what make me a woman is the feelings and stereotypes when in fact for me, and many of the women I know, being a woman is based purely on my femaleness and the rest is just likes, dislikes and personality.

I would have said something similar op. I’m not a cis woman. I’m a woman. I find the term cis woman offensive and it doesn’t describe me.

🥱

They can. It doesn't mean anything, though. And I thought the gender police said it was illegal to assume someone's gender ID just by looking at them? In which case the trainers violated their own code of conduct.

I regard being called ‘cis,’ in this context, as insulting as being called a ‘kaafir’ by a Muslim or a ‘goy’ by a Jewish adherent.

Any organisation that insists you accept it, regardless of your personal beliefs, is being discriminatory. I’d be tempted to make comments about how far they’d get at Tribunal with their attempts to create such a hostile work environment for you and the, (unfortunately less vocal), majority of your colleagues).

I wish Christinapple would take themselves elsewhere...anywhere...

Is this a cis apple or trans apple ?

no it’s an orange . It doesn’t have any apple in it

in the same way women ( which means a specific sex ) can’t be a cisgender women because there is no rule or law of physics that says women ( sex) MUST have a gender

women also don’t have to have make up , a telly, a job, a chair to sit on, a photo frame , a copy of the bible ….

we don’t label all these women with special terms

I agree with asking them to put it in writing.

And then I'd be replying saying, "So you're telling me that not only do I have to be inclusive by referring to other people in a way that reflects their beliefs, I also have to be inclusive by referring to myself in a way that reflects their beliefs but not mine? Can you point me to where it says this in the HR handbook, and if it does, has it been updated since the Forstater EAT judgment?"

Oh wow! Not great. In your shoes I would put down a marker just to protect myself. Have a look at the Sex Matters website for help with what to say. Maybe something along the lines of " I found it quite distressing to be asked to participate in ideology I don't support and even more to receive what felt like a reprimand for having what I consider to be perfectly normal, reasonable views. I don't wish to challenge how individual colleagues want to express themselves but I also feel I should not have to participate in forms of speech whichI consider to be incorrect. I would hope that my point of view could be respected as well as that of other people" good luck

I was responding to the OP who was disputing being cisgender.
I honestly don't know why people are so concerned about what a "man" or "woman" are. Everyone deserves to be treated with courtesy and to not be physically attacked by anyone else. People should not be treated differently because of what is in their underwear. Everyone should have the same opportunities.

I agree. The term cisgender or ciswoman carries the clear connotation that the user believes in gender ideology. It is not at all a simple description. If you don't actually accept the premise of gender ideology you are entitled to refuse to play along with the terminology.

“Please don’t label me as CIS based on how I look, I prefer not to discuss how I identify”

turn it around, YOU are being discriminated against

Can you tell me how the OP is attacking anyone by referring to herself as a woman? Bet you can't.

You're a massive hypocrite. Coercively assuming the OP's gender.

Interesting that inclusiveness only applies to your co-worker, while are not allowed to define your identity

The term 'cis' involves signing up to a belief system (that transwomen are a subset of women, not biological men) that the (vast?) majority of posters on this board resoundingly reject.

I am not a cis woman. I am a woman. If someone asked for my experiences as a cis woman I hope I'd be as gutsy as the OP and say that I didn't have any, as I am not one, and object to being called one, but would be happy to share my experiences of being a human female. And get well stuck in on all that shit that unfortunately defines much of the female experience: the casual misogyny from childhood, the less-casual misogyny from a couple of bosses over the course of my working life (including the psycho who spent about 20 minutes shouting at me, and the one who blocked my promotion for a year), getting blood on clothes and sheets when menstruating (especially during and in the years after puberty, just when you're at peak the embarrassment age), being so laid out with period pain you can barely walk, sexual harassment (plenty of that, until you become invisible), having men use their superior strength against you (and then objecting when you hit them in the nuts because 'that's not fair'), bearing the burden of reproduction (yes, I wanted DC but I hated being pregnant: morning sickness, backache, the feeling of my body not being my own), menopause and all its attendant joys (hot flushes, memory loss so that you're wonder if you're developing early-onset Alzheimer's, balance issues so that you worry you've got some neurological disorder, sleeplessness, your skin going to shit over the course of a couple of years) and - as I head into old age - the risks of prolapse (family history of it) and osteoporosis.

Sure, there are downsides to being a bloke (when young, the risks of violent interactions are higher; when old, your prostate seems almost guaranteed to cause gyp) but being a woman brings a LOT of baggage.

'Cis' woman? That term can bloody do one. I am a woman. End of.

And - hurrah! - it has been confirmed that the law says so.

I think you made an important point which they should take on board.

They assumed you identified as "cis", which you did not so you were offended.

When dealing with patients and colleagues, nobody should be assuming anyone's beliefs. This should be reflected in the language you use.

"Do you identify as transgender?" is a question you can reasonably ask anyone without offence.

"Are you cis or trans" is offensive to those who do not hold a belief in gender identity. Like asking "are you a protestant or a Catholic" would be to someone with a different or no religion.

Also if people want to be referred to as them, they should respect my right to be called a woman. Since as you point out @IzzyHandsIsMySpiritAnimal everyone should have the same opportunities.

Nobody has been physically attacked. What does that relate to?

You were setting a very good example. Well done, and good luck.