Allow Male Workers to perform mammograms and breast screening

[CrakdEgg]

OK, so the Society & College of Radiographers have their annual delegates conference, where members bring forward motions for the union to lobby on.
In the past they have passed motions to 'remove gendered language' from health communications for inclusivity - you know, 'pregnant people' and the like. They then lobby behind the scenes to the Government to follow these requests.

This year we have this motion -

Allow Male Workers to Perform Mammograms

Workforce shortages: there are 15 posts for mammographers on NHS jobs. In the UK.

But are we bothered? Do we not want males in this space, or does it not matter because we have male gynaecologists? Or will it dissuade women from attending?

I am interested to hear other people's opinions. My instincts say 'no way Jose', but I am interested in keeping males out of female spaces, so I accept my bias.

Thoughts?

@AngelinaFibres , @RedToothBrush @SirChenjins - I appreciate and understand all your replies.
I definitely agree that women’s healthcare is not seen as important. As a personal experience I had a womb camera plus biopsy without any pain relief, and was also refused the previously offered if needed gas and air when I practically begged for it - I was told just to breathe through it. In that room were 3 women, no men, but no recognition of my pain and in fact comments on ‘it’s dark up here’, ‘it’s messy!’ as well as ‘just breathe’. I was told I needed another the following year but couldn’t face that again and was sent to have it done under general. The anaesthetist was well used to women ending up having this done under general, and surprised that I’d managed to have the procedure completed, it’s usually referred as some can’t complete the procedure, my case was due to needing a repeat. He, yes a male anaesthetist, was sympathetic and believed they should stop attempting it without relief - I also had a male doing the procedure itself and male student who appreciated the opportunity (plus a female nurse) but I didn’t notice that much, being asleep! It isn’t all women who can’t tolerate this procedure apparently so guess it makes monetary sense to the NHS just to give it a go! To my mind men wouldn’t have this ‘give it a go’ option, as it’s because women aren’t as important. This is an issue that needs to be addressed - but I don’t see it conflates particularly/solely to mammograms at all - it relates to training, options and updating professionals consistently on all areas of their work.
I’m in total agreement women (and men) should have option of own sex doing whatever the intimate procedure is but I’m still not in agreement men should be barred from certain procedures- I actually think it could become, in distant future, a slippery slope to more segregated spaces in the medical arena, and where there’s insufficient professionals of one sex then there’d be gaps in care.
Obviously my experience with females being no more empathetic than males, if not worse, makes my position quite different to some and helps me be ok to have guys, plus my keenness to get my next mammogram in a timely manner (selfishly perhaps) - but I just think we can have choices to suit everyone within the medical spaces. And just to add I’ve been in myself, and witnessed, male on female abusive situations at work and had to stay in a refuge - but if I feel it’s required then I’d make my own informed and preferred choices about how and where to live/work, as I can do in medical situations- anyway just clarifying that I’m not blind to trauma or issues - and as said if it’s necessary, saves stress, or makes someone more comfortable then absolutely they should be able to have female care every time.

My problem is the lack of ability to have informed choice and it undue pressure placed on women to consent.

Given that women are actively put into high pressure positions and then asked for consent my default is that they should not be put in the position of having to choose between their dignity, safety and emotional wellbeing and their physical health. That's what would happen if mammograms were allowed by males.

I think that more women would do certain job if working conditions were better. We are not talking about women being pressured into certain areas of healthcare - we are talking about more women in the workforce which would be affordable if done correctly and it would be preventative and stop more costly later treatment.

We also need to acknowledge that women are just as capable of sexist points of view as men - this includes the idea of women putting up and shutting up.

Lack of adequate pain relief is beginning to be recognised as a particular area of concern with regards to sexism and racism, so I totally get your point. I just disagree about the various solutions on offer to get to that.

Same here.

@RedToothBrush - really glad to hear this pain relief issue is being recognised - they need to now address it but fingers crossed.
I actually think I’d have managed the biopsy on gas and air and so saved cash if I’d been allowed it - not sure why I wasn’t at all - unless it was my comment I had liked it previously when they mentioned the option - I didn’t make that mistake with a colonoscopy later lol (and tolerated fine with the happy gas).
I’ve actually only come across females being rather unsympathetic to pain/embarrassment- not all of course - and men being more sympathetic eg/ a male dr keen to get me further pain relief for stitches once when female kept saying it was unnecessary - but I wonder if males are more primed to assume women can’t do pain like a man 🙈and women want us all to be strong, or can’t relate due to personally coping differently. That only just popped in my head so may well need ignoring! Though I get extra disappointed when I feel women let women down tbh so perhaps I just notice it more. And I’m horribly aware I probably appear to actually be one of these letting other women down people myself on this thread.
Obviously also this is heavily based just on my experiences. And of course I’m aware of other issues that can arise nearly always just from men.

Oh, @MsJinks , I think this "but I wonder if males are more primed to assume women can’t do pain like a man 🙈and women want us all to be strong, or can’t relate due to personally coping differently" is spot on. Lack of empathy, but make it sexuated. Female healthcare workers can be absolute sadists with women.

I understand this viewpoint and it’s unacceptable that it’s not easy to request. This happens in many places I think though, including womb and other similar checks, so perhaps a real drive to ensure requests are done differently would be better - eg you will auto get a female unless you tick to say you don’t mind?
Otoh I do think it can be a difficult balance at times in some arenas - moons ago when pregnant at a time you attended hospital regularly there was a very high proportion of women needing women only and it was hard for students to get to observe some stuff. I allowed it as I could - it was just embarrassing tbh but equally so women as men staring at my top half for clues to the answer on how you could tell I was pregnant! I was happy to help though, ans I could and so maybe take one for the female team!! As this attendance and check stuff is no longer a thing I guess this is no longer a problem, but I imagine some remain and ways around it need to be found without making anyone feel bad.
I remain reluctant to only have females trained/available in some areas though as I do feel down the line this could come back to bite in unexpected ways. Trouble is we don’t seem to have resources to address basic health and social care issues and I’m not sure anything is about to improve to the point we can look at best practice instead of firefighting practice sadly.

Never. For all these women who are cavalier about giving rights of other women away just think about the large number of women and girls who have experienced sexual assault Just show a little empathy. And no woman should be made to feel prudish or a fuddy dudsy because a generation of young girls groomed only only fans and porn culture think anything goes. The more I have looked into feminist issues the more I realise how much mostly middle class professional men despise women: to the extent I would only trust the advice of an older female woman doctor . I am frankly deeply concerned about getting older and needing to seek medical care at all given the woke anti woman science denying attitude we have seen from the BMA and the trendy tik tok medics. I hope someone sets up a single sex hospital. I'd actually pay private medical cover to get it.

and for those women who think it's pearl clutching look at some of the misogyny directed at older women who dare to speak up for single sex care or challenge porn culture before throwing out rights away rather than appeals illiberal

I would like to know what initiatives the NHS have tried to encourage more women to take up these posts or are they just keen to shoehorn more men into scenarios where they can access women when vulnerable like the midwife organisation did?

The horrifyingly high number of rapes and sexual assaults of women in hospital BY STAFF indicates that there should be fewer men not more if the NHS has any regard for safety of women.

There was a documentary about assaults by medical staff on television a few years ago (I think on Channel 4). I and some female colleagues were discussing it the next day and one said that a couple of years previously she had seen a GP at her student medical centre (turned out she had bronchitis) and he asked her about her breasts and performed a manual breast examination on her. At the time she was a bit surprised and found it awkward but she had assumed the doctor had found something concerning in her symptoms.

Wasn't there an NHS mortuary worker who was sexually abusing female corpses just a few years ago? Haven't we learned there is nothing men won't stoop to to get a thrill?

I knew a male midwife. He was gentle, considerate, and actually listened as he wanted to learn from women about their experiences and how he could help the process. He hadn’t been through it so had an open mind. He was also gay, and in a committed relationship. So definitely not in it for the wrong reasons.

the female midwives I had were fucking awful. Knew better than me, laughed when I said the pain wasn’t normal, dismissed me as a first timer. Treated me pretty much as an annoyance.

post natally the grabbing of my breasts and manhandling them was far worse than my mammogram experience.

i also had a male HV. Again he was far better than the females- had actually learned about breast feeding and what was normal, and how to fix things. Rather than the women who seem to only ever advised a bottle because in their opinion it was an easier fix. And often simply what they had done.

birth is a known area where women are constantly dismissed and ignored. We know it. Everyone knows it. Yes most midwives are female, and don’t seem to advocate for their patients at all.

So women should not ask to choose so that more men will go for the check

Same thing happens with hyteroscopies if you want a GA

I’ve contacted them on their website and given my objections, also said that if they’re short of staff, recruit more women.
The person being interviewed on World at One said that part of the reason they were debating it was that it restricted career progression for men. Now Sarah Montague has never struck me as being much of a committed feminist, but even she was incredulous and asked for that to be clarified.

I posted way back in the thread saying I’m happy to have male nurses/drs/radiographers doing this, and they should be allowed to do this, but I think I should caveat my opinion with this:

women should be able to specify female only care at any point, especially for intimate exams. Women should also ALWAYS be offered a chaperone if it’s a male practitioner.

they aren't generally isolated. The whole point is to have them in busy places where women would normally go.

OK so there is a shortage of radiographers to perform mammograms and this is a job where there is a genuine occupational requirement for women to fill the role but apparently the solution is to recruit men?

We appoint a man to do the job and then pay a woman, on a lower salary, to act as a chaperone? I'm not an accountant but how the fuck does that make sense? Why don't we recruit women and pay them more?

Except this isn't about a shortage of radiographers it's just a continuation of the campaign to destroy women's rights. They thought they could do by stealth but after the SC judgement they've decided to take a battering ram to the front door. If women accept this how do they propose to protect any single sex service or space.

They probably can’t do gowns easily. Laundry, storage etc. Also it would potentially get in the way.

The whole thing is so similar to assisted suicide.

There’s a crisis in palliative care. The answer should be improving palliative care, but instead it’s helping people die.

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think so, yes. The pushback has commenced.

I think you've got it there.
There's a shortage of radiographers not mammographers, but the shortage is being conflated to justify this 'need' to train males.

Soft launch, no female only spaces - so what are the pesky women arguing about anyway?

Is the workforce shortage radiographers or mammographers?

i already commented on here: male gynea during fertility and pregnancy, baby delivered by male gynea. However, my mammogram involved me walking topless into the room and a radiographer literally pushing up against me, groping and pulling my boobs with her body pressed against mine. I have small boobs so maybe more tugging was needed. It made me feel vulnerable, it hurt and I may have bitten my lip to stop tears. Would I want a male doing that to me? Absolutely not. For those commenting who said "I don't care", but never had a mammogram, come back on here when you've had one and then see if you still feel the same.

me too! plenty of poking and prodding down under but the mammogram made me walk out very close to tears!

The spokeswoman on the radio was saying that it would open up all sorts of interesting areas to men, such as interpreting scans, and that it wasn’t just about X-rays. But that doesn’t mean that a man has to carry out the actual mammogram!
I see that there’s a Level 4 Mammography Apprenticeship available.

Well, according to the radiographer who just did my mammogram that isn’t true - that lots of people want to be radiographers because it’s a good job in the NHS - decent salary, 9-5.

She said she and her colleagues had just been discussing it. She completely agreed it should be done by a woman and that all that would happen is a clinic would run with , say, 4 radiographers, 3 female, 1 male, and the female ones would have bookings all day long and a queue a mile long and the male one would see a handful of women.

Isolated in that it is at the very end of the massive Tesco car park here.