Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is anyone worried about pressure now to change the Equality legislation?

271 replies

Unbeleevable · 26/04/2025 01:27

There's a lot of wisdom in this forum - I wondered in the happy afterglow of the very clear-cut SC and EHCR pronouncements on biological sex … is there a risk that behind this, someone is pulling strings to publish strong statements hoping this will to trigger a surge of pro-trans-rights sentiment leading to a widespread acceptance the EA must change to encompass rights based on declared gender identity? And eventually a political mandate for the same?

In other words - we can’t expect the TRAs will give up. Have we won the battle but not the war?

I have long felt I have landed on the wrong side of history in my GC convictions - I can’t shake the feeling that the recent developments are too good to be true.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Stepfordian · 27/04/2025 20:41

Trans people have no moral or ethical ‘right’ to be seen as the opposite sex or be given rights as though they were the opposite sex, politicians may have made mistakes in the past when it was assumed no one would pretend to be trans because it was simply to humiliating to contemplate, but things have changed over the last 20 years, it would not go down well with the public now, knowing what we know.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2025 20:44

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2025 20:28

Laws exist to protect marginalised minorities both from the seething masses of low-information ignorant bigots who lash out in fear-tinged hostility, and the small number of obsessive crusaders who dedicate their lives to causing us harm.

Yes we know.

We used them to protect our sex based rights as women.

HelenaWaiting · 27/04/2025 20:46

As I have said before, there is no merit to a demand for "rights" that consists of the removal of rights from another group, and I would happily go to judicial review on this basis, if necessary.

Helleofabore · 27/04/2025 20:58

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2025 20:28

Laws exist to protect marginalised minorities both from the seething masses of low-information ignorant bigots who lash out in fear-tinged hostility, and the small number of obsessive crusaders who dedicate their lives to causing us harm.

Gosh!!

Imagine that. Imagine also that laws exist to protect all marginalised groups such as female people from the seething masses of low-information ignorant bigots who lash out in fear-tinged hostility, and the small number of obsessive crusaders who dedicate their lives to causing us harm.

woohoo! You really are getting it.

The EA protects female people’s needs to exclude all male people. As it did back in 2010.

SternJoyousBee · 27/04/2025 20:58

How would I know if I have a gender identity or not? 🤔

SternJoyousBee · 27/04/2025 21:02

Homeless people are a marginalised minority. Grown men tantrumming like toddlers and peeing in the street are not a marginalised minority. Neither are the thugs who wear masks and scream threats at women, nor are the men who go further than just screaming and who actually assault women in the streets.

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2025 21:11

SternJoyousBee · 27/04/2025 20:58

How would I know if I have a gender identity or not? 🤔

You'd feel entitled to remove the rights of others because you thought you were the most equal of all.

SternJoyousBee · 27/04/2025 21:14

RedToothBrush · 27/04/2025 21:11

You'd feel entitled to remove the rights of others because you thought you were the most equal of all.

Oh I definitely don’t have one then.

NotAtMyAge · 27/04/2025 21:21

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 02:56

Do you understand what marginalised means?

Nothing marginalised about an ideology that has taken such firm hold of so many people and institutions of influence and power. If any group has been marginalised it's women who know that no-one can change sex and that women's rights are at risk of disappearing in a land-grab by trans-identified men.

NotAtMyAge · 27/04/2025 21:43

ButterflyHatched · 27/04/2025 20:28

Laws exist to protect marginalised minorities both from the seething masses of low-information ignorant bigots who lash out in fear-tinged hostility, and the small number of obsessive crusaders who dedicate their lives to causing us harm.

Since when were men, however they identify, a marginalised minority? It's so telling that trans-identified men bring with them into what they conceive of as womanhood their ingrained male sense of entitlement.

Helleofabore · 27/04/2025 22:07

It's so telling that trans-identified men bring with them into what they conceive of as womanhood their ingrained male sense of entitlement.

It has been a message that we have been telling some posters for years. They truly think they ‘pass’ though.

But I get it. It must be real hard to think that so many people just repeated things they thought you wanted to hear rather than being honest. So, when you encounter a group of women who just won’t placate you, you immediately think they are just being hurtful not truthful.

It is like those people who demonise women and vilify them for daring to say that person there is a man are also doing the work for this group. We have seen it said in witness statements during some of the cases. We can think and know the truth, we cannot say it in any way using any terms. The truth is simply unacceptable to say out loud.

What group has that power over others?

SinnerBoy · 27/04/2025 22:51

ButterflyHatched

Laws exist to protect marginalised minorities both from the seething masses of low-information ignorant bigots who lash out in fear-tinged hostility, and the small number of obsessive crusaders who dedicate their lives to causing us harm.

You've described successfully the trans extremist zealot side, vs women.

TheClogLady · 27/04/2025 23:04

One insult that really doesn’t hold up when used against Mumsnet FWR posters is ‘low information’.

Back in 2017 a TRA told me to ‘Go away and educate [myself]’, so I did exactly that.

The last 8 years have been rather enlightening!

ThatsNotMyTeen · 27/04/2025 23:16

I’m not worried it will happen, I think Labour know they will be as well handing the keys to no 10 to Nigel Farage if they do

lnks · 27/04/2025 23:45

NotAtMyAge · 27/04/2025 21:43

Since when were men, however they identify, a marginalised minority? It's so telling that trans-identified men bring with them into what they conceive of as womanhood their ingrained male sense of entitlement.

And their ingrained male aggression, as demonstrated by @ButterflyHatched

Invi · 28/04/2025 02:04

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 26/04/2025 03:13

The blokes who were pissing in the street last week don't need any kind of special accommodations. But I would appreciate a public conversation with stealth trans men and women because I don't know what would work best for them, I have no idea what sort of numbers of people we're talking about, and they have had no public voice until now. They only operate as a sort of TRA gotcha.
My suspicion is that we are talking about such a vanishingly small numer of people that no public works programs will be needed, but it would be good to know. And I'm sure from the perspective of long transitioned, never clocked trans people things look very different. Again, I'd be interested in a conversation that centred voices other than the types who were carrying on at last week's protest.

How we perceive the situation? I am not living in the UK so take it with a grain of salt.

In short current situation would be extremely tricky and dangerous for someone like me. We live among natal women, usually private about our past because currently it's dangerous for our careers and friendships since image of being transsexual was turned into being a dangerous freak due behavior of TRAs and also those like many on this forum (thank you very much). The quality of life is now dependent on not being seen as trans.

The question I have on my mind is enforcement. How will UK enforce the new policy if they want to really "get" everyone. Wild scenarios appear in my head.

Invi · 28/04/2025 02:15

TheClogLady · 27/04/2025 17:43

I think we need to keep scrutinising EVERYTHING and not rest on our laurels but I’m not really worried about parliamentary changes - even if there is a bit of a future adaption it’ll never go as far as ‘Stonewall Law’ tried to - most people now know that a transwoman is a man and politicians will look stupid as fuck if they try and legislate males into being females now that people are looking out for it.

The climate of fearful silence has been made far less oppressive by Maya’s win (and all the other tribunals and reviews) publications are willing to risk IPSO fines in order tell the truth, the craziest characters (eg Little Owen Jones) have been pushed to the sidelines and even Novara Media have started to seed the notion that trans activism has gone too far.

The trans rights protestors have less and less credibility every time one of the speaks to camera (and some of them are far too narcissistic to stick to the ‘No Debate’ rules.

I do think an ECHR case is probably inevitable but with Jolly-On and Bundlejuice at the helm I think we’ve got a better chance of them unintentionally reinstating sanity across all of Europe rather than achieving a roll back on our progress here.

There is little point in a court-awarded ‘right to privacy’ when technology has already rendered such things impossible - eg as happened with anonymous gamete donors and the advent of commercial DNA genealogy websites. The GRA was written when transsexuals were rare and the public narrative around transsexualism almost always included starting a new life in a new geographical location where no one knew their actual sex (aka the April Ashley/Hayley Cropper experience) and that living entirely in that new identity was an integral part of the treatment for Gender Identity Disorder, therefore anything that ‘outed’ them would be counterproductive to the treatment pathway and thus unnecessarily cruel (especially if that ‘outing’ came about via the medium of tabloid journalism). Jan Morris was a notable exception to that narrative (and perhaps the OG beneficiary of the ‘stunning and brave’ concept decades before the phrase was coined? Morris was already famous and associated with stereotypically manly pursuits so had a social status that could theoretically be lost by transitioning, which in hindsight obvs did not happen as the patriarchy richly rewarded Morris for being exactly the same as before but now sporting a twinset and pearls… but I digress!)

Now that millions of people habitually document their entire lives via social media and gender transition begins with ‘coming out’ rather than after a lengthy psychiatric assessment resulting in a formal diagnosis, it’s surely very difficult to continue to justify the falsification of sex on one’s identity documents via the ‘right to privacy’ (especially as that supposed right to privacy has since been utilised by sex offenders to avoid registration and parents have argued it should come with the right to gaslight their own children by recording the child’s mother as the child’s father on the child’s birth registration document)?

The various corporate policy changes re: censorship/discussing trans encroachment on women’s rights and gay rights (and everyones right to reality) on social media mean we’re unlikely to be restricted to a handful of older style chat forums again any time soon (shout out to MN, obvs, but also to the owners/operators of PistonHeads, Lipstick Alley & Datalounge, along with Josh at the Farms, who kept the spirit of free speech alive for blokes, black Americans, gay men and disgruntled gamers/internet gossip lovers respectively, just as Justine did for us).

We’re yet to reach the point where the police will reliably step in and stop men-with-special-genders from hammering on the doors and windows of a community centre full of terves but a) we don’t really need those sorts of meetings anymore and b) we have all got far more savvy at video documenting & disseminating the footage so bring it on, it might just be the final nail in the coffin of
Gender WooWoo.

All of the big TRA wins are well in the rearview mirror and were achieved, as Christine Burns of Press For Change so memorably described it, ‘in the shadows’.

Now that we’ve all got our metaphorical high beams on the chances of transactivists finding any new shadows to operate in seems pretty small - especially as so many of their once-powerful orgs have either been mothballed, beclowned themselves or are close to bankruptcy (income has fallen while EDI/HR/staff spending has gone up). Who even knows what Mermaids, Stonewall et al think about the Supreme Court ruling? I’ve not seen any press coverage that included them, they have seemingly overreached themselves into irrelevancy.

Still chuckling to myself at the memory of Bundlejuice on telly last week, telling Richard Madeley that it was now time for both sides to get around a table and work out a compromise! Ha! ‘No Debate’ from the TRAs is well and truly dead in the water, now it’s ’Sorry Mate! You are way too Late to come looking for a Debate now (we’re far too busy repairing all our stuff that you smashed up and stomped on when you thought you could get away with it)’

We now need to ensure that we continue to support all the new GC/pro statutory safeguarding orgs that women, lesbians and gay men, parents and people working in various professions and sectors have been forced to found, as there are going to be an awful lot of updated policy documents to scrutinise over the next 12 months.

Just imagining how many Equality Impact Assessments are going to need a do over between now and Xmas is making me reach for the metaphorical smelling salts - lucky we all have plenty of practice this shit now, eh? 😬😆😂

"The GRA was written when transsexuals were rare and the public narrative around transsexualism almost always included starting a new life in a new geographical location where no one knew their actual sex (aka the April Ashley/Hayley Cropper experience) and that living entirely in that new identity was an integral part of the treatment for Gender Identity Disorder, therefore anything that ‘outed’ them would be counterproductive to the treatment pathway and thus unnecessarily cruel"

If you step out of UK, this is how it still works in some European counties. ECtHR is institution covering whole Europe (member countries of ECHR), not just UK. Where I live to transition people need to go through psychological, sexological assessment, then HRT, RLT and then they are completely legally stealthed, which ofc is beneficial only when they physically pass.
They are getting new life and as such force outing is directly dangerous for career and social life. ECtHR position on this is supporting privacy.

RedHelenB · 28/04/2025 03:35

Invi · 28/04/2025 02:04

How we perceive the situation? I am not living in the UK so take it with a grain of salt.

In short current situation would be extremely tricky and dangerous for someone like me. We live among natal women, usually private about our past because currently it's dangerous for our careers and friendships since image of being transsexual was turned into being a dangerous freak due behavior of TRAs and also those like many on this forum (thank you very much). The quality of life is now dependent on not being seen as trans.

The question I have on my mind is enforcement. How will UK enforce the new policy if they want to really "get" everyone. Wild scenarios appear in my head.

What sort of wild scenarios?

SinnerBoy · 28/04/2025 04:29

Women saying,

"Excuse me! This is the ladies, it's women only!"

To transsexuals, who've never previously been challenged?

OuterSpaceCadet · 28/04/2025 06:42

I have long felt I have landed on the wrong side of history in my GC convictions - I can’t shake the feeling that the recent developments are too good to be true.

Intrigued by your last paragraph OP

Wrong side of which kind of history? Do you think "history" as it is taught is a neutral act? Despite growing awareness it's still overwhelmingly the story of men and usually the privileged ones. The narrative is controlled by people with power.

And what are your "GC convictions"? Are you using that as a shorthand for saying you understand reality or do you actually see gender stereotyping as harmful? They are different positions.

If you genuinely worry you're the wrong side of history I'd suggest that you're actually quite comfortable with the stereotype of men being the humans who matter.

Merrymouse · 28/04/2025 08:08

Invi · 28/04/2025 02:15

"The GRA was written when transsexuals were rare and the public narrative around transsexualism almost always included starting a new life in a new geographical location where no one knew their actual sex (aka the April Ashley/Hayley Cropper experience) and that living entirely in that new identity was an integral part of the treatment for Gender Identity Disorder, therefore anything that ‘outed’ them would be counterproductive to the treatment pathway and thus unnecessarily cruel"

If you step out of UK, this is how it still works in some European counties. ECtHR is institution covering whole Europe (member countries of ECHR), not just UK. Where I live to transition people need to go through psychological, sexological assessment, then HRT, RLT and then they are completely legally stealthed, which ofc is beneficial only when they physically pass.
They are getting new life and as such force outing is directly dangerous for career and social life. ECtHR position on this is supporting privacy.

Edited

The ECtHR has already ruled that countries that link rights to sterilisation are not complying with the convention. Particularly post Cass, I don't think any court would allow rights to be linked to medical treatment.

Linking 'LGB and T' also ties T to a culture that is antagonistic to 'staying in the closet' and a campaigning group whose goal has long been self ID - so no boundaries to the concept of being trans.

I don't see how the clock can be turned back.

Invi · 28/04/2025 08:18

SinnerBoy · 28/04/2025 04:29

Women saying,

"Excuse me! This is the ladies, it's women only!"

To transsexuals, who've never previously been challenged?

I don't think this is the realistic scenario. On the other hand UK policy now states that everyone should use facilities based on "SEX". So then the question is, how UK is going to enforce this and what danger actully represents this for us who were navigating society under the rules of "integrate and disappear".
I believe that going to far with enforcement cannot help anyone, quite contrary.

But who I am to know, I see UK as a kind of social experiment running wild now.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 28/04/2025 08:24

Invi · 28/04/2025 08:18

I don't think this is the realistic scenario. On the other hand UK policy now states that everyone should use facilities based on "SEX". So then the question is, how UK is going to enforce this and what danger actully represents this for us who were navigating society under the rules of "integrate and disappear".
I believe that going to far with enforcement cannot help anyone, quite contrary.

But who I am to know, I see UK as a kind of social experiment running wild now.

UK law is that single sex spaces are defined by biological sex & always have been. The Supreme Court has merely confirmed the existing law. It's those who have blatantly ignored the existing social convention we all learned at kindergarten who are to blame. Men & boys use the male facilities while women & girls use the female facilities. It's not an experiment at all. Women should never have been expected to tolerate men invading their single sex spaces.

Merrymouse · 28/04/2025 08:48

Invi · 28/04/2025 08:18

I don't think this is the realistic scenario. On the other hand UK policy now states that everyone should use facilities based on "SEX". So then the question is, how UK is going to enforce this and what danger actully represents this for us who were navigating society under the rules of "integrate and disappear".
I believe that going to far with enforcement cannot help anyone, quite contrary.

But who I am to know, I see UK as a kind of social experiment running wild now.

In the UK toilet use isn't enforced and relies on social convention.

In reality, somebody who passes and whose background is not known is unlikely to be challenged.

However, it is likely that there will be far more provision of unisex toilets, which I think is better for people who are not confident about passing. I don't believe that all trans people were happily using opposite sex toilets.

If, as has been proposed, men start forcing their way into women's toilets as protest, enforcement would be much more likely.

Regardless of the views and preferences of anyone on this site, the protected characteristic of gender reassignment covers a wide range of people, who are able to make the case that they are excluded by single sex provision.

What they can no longer do is make the argument that the PC of sex doesn't exist.

Ferro · 28/04/2025 08:56

ButterflyHatched · 26/04/2025 02:56

Do you understand what marginalised means?

Yes I do.

It means you are routinely ignored in policy making. You are demonised in the gutter press. You have rights on paper but you do not have any social power to enforce them.

This applies to refugees, homeless people, benefit claimants, disabled people and the working poor among others.

It does not remotely apply to trans-identifying people who are feted by almost all organisations of civil society.