Confused about trans men or men posing as…

[TheQuickRobin]

Ok first off please be kind to me, as this is likely something others have considered and I am asking from genuine curiosity, not to try and make a point.

With the judgement on what is a woman, I like most people I know thought, oh well, that seems pretty common sense really. I don’t know any trans people and it’s not an issue that’s ever impacted me personally. I understand the arguments about women’s only spaces etc.

The only women’s only space I really use is a communal changing room in the gym. I wouldn’t like it if a man walked in claiming he ‘identified as’ a woman and used that as an excuse to bother me or others whilst we were showering. I get that. I also understand that there are trans women who have transitioned and look for all intents and purposes as female and that those people should now find another space to get changed i guess (?) as the female changing space should be female only. I’m tracking this so far.

Where I get lost is trans men, ie: born as women, now identify as men. Many have hairy beards, and identify as straight, ie: fancy women. Now as they were born women, does this mean they have as much right to the ladies changing room as me? Because I’m not sure how I feel about that. And ironically would this increase cover for creepy cis-men who want to go leer at ladies in the shower as they can just lie and claim to be trans men who were born female. In other words, would it actually make it easier for bad men to access female spaces as it’s harder to check? Ie: if a big beardy fella comes into the changing rooms and claims he identifies as female, i’d hope common sense would preside and we’d all kick him out. But if same beardy fella comes in and says he was born female… what then 🤯

I believe that in India the government wants to protect its remaining Tigers from villagers. So it tells them not to worry too much if they come across a Tiger as only a small number of Tigers will attack people. I don't know what the villagers feel about this advice.

Your confusion shows the need for separate spaces.
I shouldn't have to face a clearly male person masquerading as a woman in a changing room.

On one level I see the argument that transmen are women and can be in women's changing areas.

However, I don't feel that any woman should be standing in her nickers faced with somebody who looks and presents like man and have to have an internal debate about whether they are sharing a space with a feminine looking man or a woman trying to look like a man.
I just want to be in a woman's space safe in the knowledge that anybody in there is female, and yes, for the avoidance of stress , doesn't have a beard and doesn't look like a man.

Trans men usually pass better than trans women. Mostly women will still know their sex, men seem less able to tell. Transmen generally dont act in the entitled way that transwomen do.

Transmen cant compete in male sports so are less likely to show up in changing rooms. They use the cubicles in the mens toilets and dont hang around adjusting their clothing and make up. If they are in a male changing room, say at work, they are not going to be stripping right off if they can avoid it and they are not going to be staring at men or asking them why they are not getting undressed. They'd risk being punched for that. Transmen retain female patterns of offending, they are less likely to show up in prison. If they do they are unlikely to want to be housed with men because they know the risks.

If a transmen came into a changing room when I was there and started staring at me or asking me why I was not undressing in front of them I'd ask them to leave. If someone looks like a bloke AND acts like a bloke they can go elsewhere.

The way I see it is that if a transman passes very well (and some of them do; more so than TW IMO), they are really very unlikely to use the women’s facilities (unless they are GC and few TM are GC). If they do, they should probably expect to be challenged at some point. And I would guess that any challenge would make them quite happy, as they don’t want anyone to see them as women.

So TM who pass well can expect to be challenged, and men who pretend to be TM can expect to be challenged too, so can transwomen and men who pretend to be TW. In all of these cases, the person looks like a man.

I don’t believe that there are or will be many challenges against masculine or butch women, because the vast majority of people can see/hear/sense that they are female.

Exactly. So in fact, like a lot of casual male advantages, trans men using the womens toilet (and most of the discussions seem to centre round the toilet) and probably not the other way round (if I were a trans man I would still try to use the womens toilets actually because they dont smell nearly sp bad) is just another example of the advantage men, biological or not, have the advantage over women. Which is one reason why the law in April was passed.

Personally I know of at least one trans woman who is very prominent in the local community, but who has two or three convictions for domestic assault when (s)he was a man. And lastly, because men are stronger and usually more assertive, if you dared to challenge a trans man in your female space, they might well hit you.