Confused about trans men or men posing as…

[TheQuickRobin]

Ok first off please be kind to me, as this is likely something others have considered and I am asking from genuine curiosity, not to try and make a point.

With the judgement on what is a woman, I like most people I know thought, oh well, that seems pretty common sense really. I don’t know any trans people and it’s not an issue that’s ever impacted me personally. I understand the arguments about women’s only spaces etc.

The only women’s only space I really use is a communal changing room in the gym. I wouldn’t like it if a man walked in claiming he ‘identified as’ a woman and used that as an excuse to bother me or others whilst we were showering. I get that. I also understand that there are trans women who have transitioned and look for all intents and purposes as female and that those people should now find another space to get changed i guess (?) as the female changing space should be female only. I’m tracking this so far.

Where I get lost is trans men, ie: born as women, now identify as men. Many have hairy beards, and identify as straight, ie: fancy women. Now as they were born women, does this mean they have as much right to the ladies changing room as me? Because I’m not sure how I feel about that. And ironically would this increase cover for creepy cis-men who want to go leer at ladies in the shower as they can just lie and claim to be trans men who were born female. In other words, would it actually make it easier for bad men to access female spaces as it’s harder to check? Ie: if a big beardy fella comes into the changing rooms and claims he identifies as female, i’d hope common sense would preside and we’d all kick him out. But if same beardy fella comes in and says he was born female… what then 🤯

Well a trans man wouldn’t be “big” and beardy. They are small with beards because they are women taking testosterone.

Perhaps we need to work out why men are so toxic?

I don’t think all men are toxic. I think a small number of them are. And it’s concern about predatory behaviour from some men and other concerns around equality legislation which led to the legal proceedings resulting in the judgement.

I’m not putting forward an opinion, asking for others views.

I also find this a conundrum because of COURSE 'trans men' are ok in the women's loos and other facilities, they are female! And I can't imagine being intimidated by them. However, while I can always spot a TIM a mile off, however young and dewy, I genuinely can find it much harder to 'tell' if a woman has transitioned via lots of testosterone and cosmetic surgery/binders and are passing as men - I think some trans-id females carry this off very successfully, and (concern for vulnerable young, often autistic, often same-sex attracted girls aside) good luck to them if that is what makes them more content. I find photos harder to 'read' the sex than meeting a person in RL, but even then I've been mistaken (meeting an acquaintance's daughter who had come back from university presenting fairly convincingly as a bloke, for example).

I don't ever want to be in a position where I've asked what turns out to be a trans-id female to leave the changing rooms. I would really like to think that I can tell that a very butch or masculine-presenting lesbian woman IS a woman! But I'm horrified at the prospect of getting something wrong and upsetting another woman.

I think we are so much less likely to encounter a slight, bearded trans woman in the women's facilities though. I think the trans women who push themselves into our spaces tend towards the caricatured, often pornified stereotypes of 'femininity' that they clearly get turned on by. I think it's far less likely that a bio male who hadn't done anything about, eg, his beard, would come into the loos and say, I'm female.

(I know there's a potential risk that a totally non-trans, predatory man might try his luck and try to pretend to be a trans man - but honestly I think that's getting a bit TOO paranoid!)

I don't ever want to be in a position where I've asked what turns out to be a trans-id female to leave the changing rooms. I would really like to think that I can tell that a very butch or masculine-presenting lesbian woman IS a woman! But I'm horrified at the prospect of getting something wrong and upsetting another woman.

I strongly disagree with the importance you place on this. It is part of the Be Kind feminine socialisation that turns women into service humans.

I'm a tall, broad-built woman. When I had cropped hair and wore bomber jackets and jeans I was often addressed as 'Sir' from behind, and challenged in the women's toilets. The moment I turned around or spoke, my challenger immediately recognised that I am female and apologised. No harm done. No offence taken. I'd much rather be challenged in the women's toilets than allow men to colonise them through women's fear of giving offence. And I said so to any women who felt embarrassed at having challenged me.

My view
The word "cis" is offensive and unecessary
TM are women, they look like women
Be Kind is how we ended up in the ridiculous situation that needed a High Court to clarify basic Biology

I think that in 99% of cases you would by looking/conversation be able to realise a transman is female.

And at least if you challenge a transman you are far less likely to be met with violent threats than challenging a transwoman, given that women are far less violent than men.

But overall this is where third spaces (in addition to not in replacement of single sex spaces) come into their own. All the people now raising the 'transmen' issue, where were they when people were complaining about transwomen in womens single sex spaces?

If stonewall et al had campaigned for third spaces for the last 10 years we wouldn't have any of the trouble we have had.

I think if you knew more trans people IRL, you'd understand that very few do actually pass. People moving and talking are very different from carefully chosen and edited pictures.

As an occasional runner in a large area of city woodland, I've learned I can accurately tell sex from a very long distance. Bear in mind walking and running gear can be pretty unisex. It is body shape, size and, crucially, gait that I'm reading. I don't think that's especially surprising as it's a survival instinct, both from the point of view of species' procreation and from the point of view of males being a danger to females.

It's possible men aren't as good as women at this and it's possible a minority of women don't possess this skill (I know someone who is entirely face blind, for instance) and maybe this is you. But it's common amongst women I've talked to about it.

Transmen do occasionally pass in my experience, but are usually given away by their height, hand size, and hip shape, as well as obviously gait.

I've just been looking at a photo of a stunning transwoman actor and it wouldn't surprise me if some men did see them as a female. In our culture men are used to seeing quite a lot of "unnatural" women, as there's a lot we do to alter our appearance. To me it was instantly obvious they were male however (and pretty hot!) but the tells are there in people's lips and brows and general facial proportions before you even get to bodies.

I can imagine this actor is used as a gotcha but the concept of passing has always struck me as extremely cruel and just another way to monetise human distress. There's no doubting the current situation is a mess but it's a mess we got to because of misogyny. Because the actual risks to women were routinely mocked and dismissed.

Fair enough but in a written post it makes it easier to express meaning and intent. In an actual conversation in real life i, like most people, don’t use these terms, though i don’t find them offensive. Just daft.

Its not needed anywhere, written or spoken
Women, Transwomen - simple

Fair enough. I’ve only ever seen in person one transman who i recognised as such who was serving me in a bar. I absolutely knew that even though they were presenting as male they’d been born female. However, i am also open to the possibility i’m surrounded by trans people who pass effectively and my thinking I don’t know any is that that i haven’t recognised them as such.

I think my question is the same though as it pertains to deviants who may be using the law to access spaces to which they have no right to access.

Under the prior argument I’d heard from Rowling, a man looking to cause harm could access a women’s changing room by lying and claiming they identify as female. Now i’m saying, could the same bad man looking to cause harm actually gain more access by telling a harder-to-disprove lie and saying they were born female?

OR we are saying in that scenario it would be perfectly possible to tell and say pull the other one, get out, and sue us if you want?

I genuinely don’t know the answer.

This is not a problem that particularly keeps me up at night by the way, i was just wondering if this could be an unwanted side effect of the judgement.

I have heard so little about third spaces in this whole discourse, and seems to me to be fairly logical.

I do wonder why men don't seem threatened at all by transmen in their spaces. It feels like transmen would be better off continuing to use male spaces, as it would cause less potential upset. If a transman came into my space I'd think they were male.

One of my trans man family members definitely passes fully as a bloke. He just looks a bit younger than he actually is. He uses the male toilets but only the cubicle. Obviously because he doesn't have a dick.

But I guess men don't care if transmen do male sport because they'll almost certainly lose.

I think if transmen are happy using the men’s and men don’t have a problem with that, that situation should be able to continue. The law at present is symmetric but the reality isn’t.

I think they’d have much more to lose, and it would be harder to defend, so hopefully it would put some of them off.
Prior to last week certain wrong ‘uns may have felt emboldened knowing that, if we were to complain about a man in the ladies loos, we would not be listened to or accused of being bigoted or transphobic. Now the law has been clarified how would such a person justify being in there?

I don't think it’s something that’s going to happen a lot or at all, but if a female wants to adapt her looks so much that she passes as male and I mistakenly ask her to leave the single sex women only space I’m in, then her offence is on her, not me. It’s not my responsibility to make her feel ok, if the responsibility lies anywhere, it’s with her to reassure me.

As I understand it, the SC ruling does have provision for transmen not to be allowed access to women’s single sex spaces if it is deemed that their presence in some way stops the space from functioning as single sex - this would address the issue you raise OP. Once again women’s (trans men’s) rights are sacrificed because of men’s bad behaviour…… I think this makes the need for third spaces impossible to ignore

The recent ruling has clarified the issue regarding transmen (female person).

Under UK law it is legal and proportional to exclude a transman (a female on testosterone) from a woman only space/service if the transman looks convincingly enough like a man.

I'm sorry but, if you are a woman going to that amount of effort and medical intervention in order to look like a man, then that's the consequence. I don't think transmen can then complain?

Genuine transmen surely wouldn't want to be in a woman's space anyway?

One glaring problem is that transmen definitely do need to be called in for their smear test and breast cancer screens so hopefully accommodations can be made regarding the waiting room eg maybe implementing this terrible transphobic notion of a third space for trans people.

Because it's legal to exclude transmen from female spaces, there's no point a bloke pretending to be a transman because he'll be excluded too.

Sorry I took so long typing that out, I didn't notice the poster above basically said the same thing.

Hopefully this helps you understand OP? X

The Equality Act is not symmetrical, because it attempts to address imbalances in society.

One sex is larger, stronger, commits 80% of violent crime and 99% of sexual assaults. Historically the male sex has had greater wealth, power, rights and freedoms.

The Sex Discrimination act and subsequent EA attempted to redress the balance to achieve equity. It afforded women extra rights and protections in an attempt to do this.

So a transman in the men's is not the same as a transwoman in the women's. It's not a mirror image. One sex is at greater risk and one has various advantages.

I think you’re assuming you can tell a transman just by looking at them. If they’re smaller than average they must be trans and therefore be given access to women’s toilets?

I know a few transmen. Trust me, you can’t tell unless they tell you. Testosterone is one hell of a hormone.

I get what you're saying.

In theory predatory men could go into the female loos and say they were transmen. It could thus be argued we're no different from before when predatory men could go into the loos and say they were transwomen. (BOTH of these situations having arisen due to trans ideology's utter dismissal of women's reality).

I still maintain if this happens you'll almost certainly be able to spot if they're male or female. The chances grow smaller of your predatory man ALSO happening to be short, slight, small handed, wide hipped, have female fat distribution etc etc

Also, the two situations are very different from each other in practice: Correctly sex a transwoman and you risk angering them, hence why many women don't confront; we know that angry males are dangerous. The fear of upsetting a potentially volatile male claiming to be a transwoman is one of the things that most erodes single sex safeguarding. No male can be called out if some males are allowed. And social media was awash with threatening "bathroom selfies" showing an ever more masculine parade of "transwomen".

Correctly sexing a man pretending to be a transman isn't going to cause any additional shift to their emotional state and calling out an actual transman as male would surely be received as a huge compliment?

So in theory, I'm not sure women have got anything to lose by challenging people they perceive as males, but in reality women will probably continue to do what they did previously which is leave the situation.

I will add my agreement to this. I have often been mistaken for a man. BUT I'd much rather than happen and it all be cleared up (ie as soon as I speak) than to have any woman in actual danger from predatory men.

Sometimes it is a bit hard to tell. Mostly, it's not.

I’ve told this before. Few years ago, in the women’s toilets of a theatre, I came out of a cubicle to find myself face to face with a bearded individual. Instantly my adrenaline shot through the roof in fight/flight/freeze. Then, in under a second, I clocked the height, and build, and carrying angle, and lack of Adam’s apple etc and realised this was a trans man. And the fear was gone. We’re pretty good at distinguishing male from female, ad a survival instinct.

I worked for a brief period with a fully-transitioned trans-IDd woman. It just happened that I only ever interacted with her when she was sitting down and I came into the room. I assumed my colleague was a quiet young man with an endocrine disorder that had affected puberty and was now being treated - hence short and slight with a beard. She 'passed'. Until the day I saw her walking down the corridor. Then it was immediately obvious that she was female.