Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side

[transdimensional]

Claim 1: That it's unfair for TW to go in men's toilets because they're less safe there.

It's probably true that they're less safe there, but how does the conclusion follow? What about a gender-nonconforming male who identifies as a man (not as a woman)? He would still have to go into the gents' even if admission to toilets was on the basis of gender identity. Should he also go to the ladies' to be safe? What about various other vulnerable groups? Young boys, elderly men who may be frail without being disabled, or ethnic minority males in an area where a white racist movement is strong - maybe they would all be safer in the ladies'? But it doesn't mean that's the answer!

Claim 2: That there is no use banning self-identified TW from the ladies' on the basis they might represent a risk, because genuinely dangerous males won't care whether they're allowed in or not.
This implies that the ladies' toilet is no safer than the gents', and therefore it completely contradicts the first point!

Claim 3: That having rules about who can and can't enter the toilets will lead to a surge in TM and others being wrongly accused of being in the wrong toilets.

But even under the EHRC's and Scottish government's understanding of the law, there were theoretical limitations on who could enter which toilets (in theory you would have needed a GRC). So there have always been rules about who can enter. Does anyone recall a huge problem of false accusations before 2010 or before 2004? If not, why should it start now?

The TRA definition of the word "woman" is set in stone (despite the fact that it's changed from "post-op transsexual" to "anyone who feels a bit girly" in just 20 years) and must be adopted by the whole of society, otherwise we're literally erasing transwomen's existence (despite the fact that it's based on a concept that's unobservable, unmeasurable and indefinable even by those people who believe in it).

The GC definition of the word "woman" is completely irrelevant and/or hateful, and changing this meaning would have no impact on the identity of women, and we must erase that use of the word "woman" from all medical and legal documents (despite the fact that it's based on observable, material reality)

Even I as a thicko who got a B in gcse biology can see understand that you can’t actually change sex.

Rare chromosomal conditions exist, therefore biology isn't real for the vast majority of people who don't have any such condition.

I didn't take biology because our biology teacher was a predatory creep who abused pubescent girls.

So - educate me - how many sexes are there?

And is the proposition that VSCs and DSDs mean that everyone should just choose which space they wish to use?

Trans rights are human rights.

Women's rights are dangerous and hateful even to discuss.

Throwing my PhD on the table too!

I'm always baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously cling to it as though it were scientific fact.
I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.
So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

I am currently having this same debate with a close friend. It’s crazy.
Even if it were true that people were on some sort of spectrum, there still requires a cut off for male/female and a third space for the confused middle.

I'm keen to hear MementoMountain 's solution. Should we have all spaces mixed sex? Or what?

You’re asking the wrong person!

If women are so awful then why do so many men want to be one?
What rights have been taken away from trans"women" exactly...the right to pee in a safe space? Well welcome to womanhood because that's exactly the same right that the TRA's want to take from us.

Well Robert Winston has said humans can't change sex and I am prepared to bet he beats you in educational top trumps.

Am I?! Bugger. Sorry! The one with the PhD who claims to know all about it.

I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that TRAs are either:

1. Thick
2. Over emotional
3. Thick and over emotional

I’m sick of trying to present logical arguments. I just have to leave the room to prevent myself from saying, ‘Grow up and read something other than memes.’

It's @MordantCarnival who questions all our biology knowledge @ArabellaScott @MementoMountain was answering mordant's question about how much biology we know.

I popped over to reddit earlier as many of the subs are fabulous but the strange thinking on this ruling as well as the hatred for jk rowling was a sight to behold. They are firmly locked into 'no debate' still and are furious that their views have, in fact, been debated and been found lacking. Transwomen are going to be murdered (by which sex they don't mention), and transmen (who they didn't care about til now) are going to be humiliated, but either way women are all fascists, except transwomen, who are women, who aren't fascists.

It's all largely written in the style of an angry teen.

The thing about gender ideology is that you cannot make it make sense and it's a waste of time even trying.

"It's sex, not gender, which makes someone a man or a woman, but people with gender dysphoria may want to affirm their gender by altering their sex organs and changing their legal sex."

"It's not possible to divide the world's population into two biological sexes in a binary manner, but it is possible to divide them into gender identities and organise society on that basis."

"Trans women need to be in women's spaces for their own safety which is why we should let literally anyone in women's spaces."

Completely off topic but a Mordant CarnIval on Memento Mountain is the sort of party the Gentleman with the Thistledown Hair organizes in Jonathan Strange&Mr Norrell

The 150 babies born with DSDs each year in the UK are still male or female.

It's an argument which is designed to obfuscate by suggesting that people with DSDs are the same as people who claim a trans identity.

Most people with DSDs are aware of this from a young age, although in some conditions this only becomes apparent at puberty. Men who decide in middle age (usually after fathering children) that they want to be women, do not have DSDs.

In the early days of gender clinics, patients were tested to see if they had any sort of DSD or chromosomal abnormality. They found that the incidence of these was no greater than in the general population.

People with DSDs have repeatedly asked that their medical conditions are not used to support claims made by people with trans identities.

@Sassysoonwins trans Reddit is truly a sight to behold. They simultaneously want entry into womens spaces but don't seem to realise the purpose of those spaces (other than as a backdrop for them to exist in).

They want us to be kind and also want no debate and then believe that kindness and lack of debate equates to public opinion being in their favour. I saw someone say that they believed public opinion 100:1 favoured TRAs because of how many TRAs protested the SC ruling and how few GC people were there in opposition?!

@MordantCarnival - if you use the word 'intersex' we immediately know you don't know what you're talking about.

And it was the Supreme Court (SC) and not the High Court (HC).

Do keep up.

Nope, we little women understand perfectly. This was never just about toilets, it was about men taking over women's spaces 50/50 men /women becomes less than half when allowing men to be considered women. Having men tell women to reframe their trauma if they object to men being in women's refuges, rape counselling sessions, doing their personal care.

In reality, people who ‘pass’ will continue to use the toilets they want to. Everyone else will use the toilet corresponding to their sex.

The few number of people who will occasionally be questioned are not a reason to put all women and girls at risk and only a rank misogynist would argue this.

Ah, thank you! Sorry for confusion. Hoping MordantCarnival will return to expand on the points made.

The thing I don’t get is if it is so dangerous for a trans woman to use the men’s loos why don’t they simply leave the house dressed in jeans and a hoodie, like 50%-60% of women I see out and about on a daily basis, then no one would know they were a trans woman and problem solved. There are plenty of men walking around with long hair and make up on. We seem to have forgotten that it is a choice to be a trans woman, it’s not a choice to be a woman, and choices have consequences.