Am I alone in NOT wanting a great flourishing of third spaces but to prefer that the definition of what being a man is widens...

[loveyouradvice]

Just that really

I remember when this whole madness started and various bearded men in skirts in women's refuges were so clear that women needed to expand their definition of women to include them....

I've always thought men need to become more involved, even just thinking about it and that the solution is for men to expand their concept of what being a man is....

But then I'm an old-fashioned feminist who has always seen performing gender-roles as an issue!!

I’m with you. The issue here should never have involved women. Men feeling uber feminine and presenting in a way that’s congruent with their feelings are still men. Other men should be the one’s who are expected to accept these feminine presenting men in their spaces, not women! Thankfully the recent SC ruling reinforced the fact that these feminine presenting men should be free from discrimination in male prisons, sporting categories and toilets etc.

I think it is a basic human right to be able to use a toilet in a public space or to be able to go swimming at a public baths. Stopping trans people from doing this because a trans man would have to use women's spaces and vice versa is totally wrong. Would you expect to see someone with a beard and big guns in a woman's toilet? Should someone with breast be expected to change for swimming among men because they were born a boy?

Yes. Men in men's single sex spaces and women in womens single sex spaces, or they can use unisex spaces.

No trans person has lost their rightsl to use a toilet or go swimming they just need to keep out of the opposite sex facilities

I dont think challenging male stereotypes and providing third spaces need to be mutually exclusive - both would be beneficial to society, IMO.

Totally, it's male violence and homophobia at the root of all this (ie, people trying to identify out of it). Where sex is important there should be single sex spaces, and they should be safe for all members of that sex

Even TRAs have asked for single sex spaces for those people who don't want mixed sex.

They are happy to share mixed sex spaces with all those people such as @mugglewump who don't mind getting undressed etc. with people of the opposite sex but even TRAs still recognise that not everyone feels that safe/comfortable doing so.

I agree with this.

If there had been campaigns for 3rd spaces and some responsibility on men to accept difference/be less violent 10 years ago things might have looked very different. But it’s not too late. That should be the focus of Stonewall etc.

Have Stonewall even commented on the SC clarification in law?

I’m ok with both as long as women have single sex spaces.

Yes, that is exactly what should happen

So we have:

mens
ladies
third space

was a clearer example needed of how invisible the disabled are ?

If people are talking about an extra space, surely it's a "fourth" space ?

(Don't get me started on how the travel system mummies usurped the hard fight wheelchair users had to get bus spaces that are now overrun with Cybertruck size prams).

Obviously it's a question of expense but I don't see why in principle there shouldn't be individual - or third - spaces provided for people who just want privacy for whatever reason.

There might be many reasons why someone would prefer not to undress in front of other people even of their own sex. Someone recently fitted with a stoma for instance might well prefer privacy while they adjust to it.

I think it is a basic human right to be able to use a toilet in a public space or to be able to go swimming at a public baths. Stopping trans people from doing this because a trans man would have to use women's spaces and vice versa is totally wrong.

Women are humans so they should be able to use a toilet in a public space or be able to change for swimming at public baths. Stopping women from doing this because humans born male want to use women's spaces is totally wrong.

Fixed it for you.

Yes

I don’t know why everyone gets so upset about third spaces. I’ve travelled in Thailand a lot and my Thai friends were killing themselves laughing when I didn’t realise there were 3 toilets and walked into the Ladyboy toilets.

@mugglewump yes, people born a boy should be expected to change for swimming among men. Hth.

‘Would you expect to see someone with a beard and big guns in a woman's toilet? Should someone with breast be expected to change for swimming among men because they were born a boy?’

If men want to have breast implants it’s up to them, but it shouldn’t have anything to do with women. These men with breast implants are protected by law against discrimination in male prisons, hospital wards and changing rooms etc. If they receive harassment or discrimination in these male spaces they need to take action to encourage their acceptance. It’s really not women’s responsibility to protect them or solve their problems.
Equally, if a woman wants to make herself look more masculine, other women will most likely be fine with her being in their single sex spaces, (as to be honest it’s usually still obvious they’re women). And if they’re not, it’s up to the masculine looking woman to solve her own problem.

Disabled toilets/facilities are either necessarily single-sex because they are single-user rooms only, or they are a cubicle within a larger women’s/men’s/unisex toilet block housing multiple cubicles.

Disabled people have the same biological sex and may or may not be trans, just like anyone else, so the fact they’re disabled doesn’t mean they need a separate category of sex segregation; just that they also need to be accommodated in each of the spaces.

Maybe, although I’m inclined to think

• the thrill of crossing women’s boundaries with apparent impunity and spiting women
• the “validation”
• the special caste status

were equal or greater drivers to the behaviour. TRAs generally come across (in public at least) as ragey and trolling, rather than fearful.

Some women can't share a space with males due to religious beliefs, where do you suggest they go?

The issue here should never have involved women. Men feeling uber feminine and presenting in a way that’s congruent with their feelings are still men.

Yes, you’ve put that better than I could @Barearse

completely agree OP

but I think telling TRAs they now have to go and campaign for 3rd spaces (like women had to campaign for 2nd spaces) will be very instructive for onlookers- its an obvious solution, so I'd like to hear them explain why its not good enough

You're not alone, no. But these days I'll take anything to ensure my daughters can have their separate spaces from potential predators men in dresses.

I think this is a fair point (despite having just used the expression 3rd space myself).

Additional/unisex/gender neutral space maybe (delete as appropriate)

Indeed, and it is men who have to sort themselves out and fully accept all men in their spaces.

And women should not be expected to answer "well where will my lovely transwoman friend be able to pee?" Men must answer.

Women should not be expected to solve the issue of third spaces. We offered, ten years or so ago, and it was all tumbleweeds. Stonewall and the men who claim womanhood were unable to contemplate third spaces, only women's spaces would do.

Women say no. What are the men saying?