Am I alone in NOT wanting a great flourishing of third spaces but to prefer that the definition of what being a man is widens...

[loveyouradvice]

Just that really

I remember when this whole madness started and various bearded men in skirts in women's refuges were so clear that women needed to expand their definition of women to include them....

I've always thought men need to become more involved, even just thinking about it and that the solution is for men to expand their concept of what being a man is....

But then I'm an old-fashioned feminist who has always seen performing gender-roles as an issue!!

Frankly, I couldn't care less about it. There should be single sex spaces, and enough self-enclosed unisex ones to accommodate disabled people and anyone else who needs or wants a private space for any reason, trans included if they feel the need. I'm not going to be wringing my hands about men of different aesthetic persuasions singing kumbaya together in the gents.

I agree.
But I do wonder what happens with transmen. I worked with one for ages before someone told me. He was very manly looking, I would have been totally freaked out if I saw him in the ladies. But then again, will they care or listen? Or more likely just continue going into the men’s where no one questions them anyway.

If I tattoo the anarchy symbol an inch tall on my face, people are going to treat me differently than if I don't. Body modifications have natural consequences and those inflicting body modifications on themselves shouldn't complain about those consequences.

Plenty of religious women, including Orthodox Jews and Muslims, don't get to swim at all unless guaranteed single-sex sessions are offered. Why should those women be excluded because some other women took testosterone?

A quick look at women's bodybuilding competitions would indicate that women can obtain "big guns" without taking testosterone. Building muscle is not the sole preserve of trans-identified females.

We don't allow men with gynaecomastia into women's changing rooms, they use the men's. The same applies to trans-identified males who have grown breasts.

I think that the people with penises should sort it out between themselves rather than making it the responsibility of the people without penises to provide a solution for them.

I think a transman who genuinely passes (i.e. has gone though significant physical alterations) may as well use the gents if they like, as nobody will notice, they pose no threat to the men in there, and there is virtually no chance of a sexual motive (which can't be said of all males in the ladies'). This would truly be someone who "just needs to pee". Obviously they can also use unisex facilities if they prefer, which would be safer for them too. I obviously don't object in theory to a transman in the ladies' (i.e. if I knew they were female), but if they literally pass as a man, then it seems a bit pointless and alarming to the other ladies in there.

That would be the disabled toilet/changing

I’d like to see fourth spaces (after disability spaces) being available for anyone who needs them.
or preferably, all services to be fully enclosed single person/family spaces.

If im out and about anytime and need the loo i`ll just park my backside in a bush as it would be safer.

You are not alone in not wanting a great flourishing of third spaces, OP!
I've said this on loads of threads, because it's one of those things that I just can't get my head around:

Constructing a fourth space - the 'third space' already exists, it's the accessible toilet - well said, SerendipityJane👏 - is going to be hugely expensive and disruptive.

Why should buildings have to have a fourth space on the off-chance that one of the tiny percentage of the population who identifies as trans wants to pee in their building, and declines to use the toilet designated for their sex because of their feelings?

There is no practical reason why people can't use the facilities designated for their sex, unlike accessible toilets which exist for people who physically need adapted toilets.

The demand for 'third' spaces is another demand based on feelings not facts.

My entire puberty was spent avoiding open changing rooms because I didn't want even other women and girls to see me.

I imagine that a woman who has had surgery leaving big scars might want privacy too.

I agree it’s not our problem to resolve now. It shouldn’t have been in the first place.

But if there was ZERO chance of a man being in a womens toilet we would KNOW that whatever a person looked like in there they would be a woman
It was only once men started trying to use women only spaces that there was any question about what sex someone in the Ladies might be
And to be honest there was never really any question anyway

Well, no, I think most people's nervous systems and gut reactions are just going to go straight to "OMG there's a man in the ladies'". I don't think many people are going to go "aha, but, in the light of the recent Supreme Court ruling, this can only be an honest female person who has undergone extreme body modifications and is now complying with the Equality Act by using the correct toilet for her biological sex". When there's a man in the ladies, you don't really stop to ponder why, you just get out of there. (Obviously if the man is wearing a dress, it's immediately clear why he's there, and you still get out of there).

To me this is something for trans people to decide - do they want to campaign for safer access to biological sex toilets or do they want a third space. IMO while there should be no men in women's toilets, it's not up to me to tell trans people whether they should want their own spaces or not.
I mean we should be able to expect men not to be a danger to women but they are so we can't tell trans people campaigning men into be more accepting will work just fine. If they feel they need 3rd spaces for safety then I'd find it hard to tell them they're wrong.

I'd also wonder if there may be an argument for trans people to use accessible toilets as they have a condition that leaves them vulnerable/extremely uncomfortable in their biological sex toilets - however I appreciate that disabled individuals may feel differently.

I agree but if the person in The Ladies NOT being a woman was never an option in the first place we would probably think that a masculine looking person in there was a masculine looking woman rather than a man

The answer is to leave the ladies loos completely single sex and make the mens unisex - problem solved!

I dunno, I think most people would just think it was a man who had accidentally stumbled in, or worse was a brazen predator. I mean I follow this whole debate, and if I saw someone who looked like a man in the ladies, I'd just think "man in the ladies" and turn and flee. Same as I would have done if trans had never been a thing. Now, if they simply look like a blue-haired tomboy or a butch lesbian or what-have-you, fine, obviously you can still tell they're a woman. I'm only talking about those where you genuinely couldn't tell, like they have a beard and a masculine build.

If men aren't safe in men's toilets something needs to be done about it. Maybe it's time for cctv covering all but the business area.

I do feel for TW, effeminate men and anxious teen boys but they can't come in the ladies!

I have a friend who thinks he's short, at 5'10, and he constantly feels at risk from other men. He's not suggesting he should be in the ladies.

Hands, feet, pelvis, lack of Adam's apple, browbone shape. If you look at a picture of Buck Angel and cover the face from the nose down so that only the eyes and forehead show, you can see that she is female.

In all honesty I don't care as long as women's spaces are for women.
I think if mtf trans people had campaigned for safe spaces rather than access to women's spaces they would've had more support.

It depends how convincing they are, doesn't it? I'm not going to be giving them a long look up and down, and nor would my daughters.

Yes. Those born male remain male.

Women don't have to share their safe spaces with men.

If men aren't safe in men's toilets something needs to be done about it. Maybe it's time for cctv covering all but the business area.

Yes, this "some men are not safe in male toilets so they should use the women's" is hilarious. I can't bother checking which rule of misogyny covers this, but why are women expected to put up with men in their toilets (and therefore, feel unsafe because there are men in their toilets obvs) but men who feel unsafe in men's toilets couldn't possibly blah blah blah?

This is a men's rights movement, no question.

That's not the way the world works - trans people can't decide they - all 262,000 of them - 'want' buildings to have third/fourth spaces and expect society to say Oh OK then.

Trans campaigners have already managed to bring about changes in language, law, education, medicine, the media etc. entirely out of proportion to their representation in society.

It has taken the whole might of the Supreme Court of the UK just to take back the original meaning of the word 'woman', and look at the violent backlash against even that small step.

All sorts of group have all sorts of wants, but society doesn't work by just giving everybody everything they want - there has to be a rational justification for something as expensive and disruptive as building fourth spaces, and it has to be proportionate to the need. There are toilets already available that trans people are perfectly capable of using; they may choose not to use them for one reason or another, but they do not physically need different toilets.

As for the suggestion that accessible toilets which disabled people campaigned for for decades should be made available to able-bodied trans people because they feel 'uncomfortable' in the toilets designated for their sex - that is incredibly dismissive of disability rights. Being transgender is not a disability, and able-bodied trans people should respect that accessible toilets are there for disabled people, not for their 'comfort.

A friend of mine who was born female has been accused of being a trans woman on multiple occasions and challenged in spaces like public toilets (obviously the handwashing area not the cubicles bit. This has been happening over a period over several years and this legal situation may empower the type of people who have been insulting her (by deeming her to be a man) and harassing her. She’s tall and has short hair but neither of those things should make her anything other than entitled to live her life in peace.