How do I handle this?!

[PyongyangKipperbang]

Full disclosure, had a couple of wines.

Out for a drink with eldest DD and DD3, who had more than a couple. She decided, whilst obviously drunk, to have an all out "I am not a woman, I am a man, my pronouns are he him, does that mean you wont love me anymore?" She is 20. Eldest DD (27) tried to rein it in, as did I because its not a good time to have that kind of conversation.

I said that I would always love her but I said that I would probably forget her new chosen name and will almost certainly call her by her birth name, but thats not out of disrespect but from habit. She was fine with that, but then went on a rant about JK. She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science". Then she said "Do you believe in my choice or JK?!!!" and I said "I respect your choice. But you know I believe in womens rights". She started saying "Then you dont love me" and I said (I was calm, took a lot of effort) "I am not being emotionally blackmailed" and left.

What do I do now?

ETA that I realised that I said "I believe in womens rights" and that when she lost it

I don't have anything helpful to say except that you are clearly a loving mother. I hope she realises that soonest.

She's been indoctrinated.

Tale as old as time. Group gets member, group starts gently massaging in "new think", then gets a bit more divisive and aggressive with it. It becomes a "them" and "us".

Any concern or challenging of the "new think" becomes "they hate us" .

I'd points this out to your DD.

Wait for her to sober up.

Hopefully she’ll realise she was being a childish twit tomorrow when she’s sobered up.

Just got this

"I am begging you to read Judith Butler or any gender socialist and actually understand the issue at hand because until then I want nothing to do with you"

I am not sure that sobering up will change anything. She is fiece and determined.

I am heartbroken.

Im sorry 💐 I must admit I am boggling at the idea of anyone reaching greater understanding through reading Judith Butler though.

I don't think your daughter is encouraging you to read the dense academic works. Their latest work is their first non-academic book, there's a review here with a title and subtitle that may be relevant to the situation at hand :)

https://archive.is/TrNIJ - Archived link of NYT review

Oh hon. You did really well to say calm under some really hard circumstances where you are on the receiving end of severe emotional blackmailing.

Not quite the same circs but this has worked for me. I have a teen who is liable to binary and then catastrophic thinking. Their self esteem took a massive hit and manifests as body dismorphia of the more conventional but nonetheless heartbreaking kind.

I have worked really hard to tell her that yes puberty absolutely sucks to the max, the messaging around what it means to be a girl is so much worse than when I was young. And also told her I have had periods of emotional dis regulation that have resulted in mental health illness. By recognising her vulnerability and talking honestly about my own it open a pathway based on some steps of mutual recognition. I see your pain- I recognise it. Mine is from a different place but emotional distress is appalling.

From there it was possible to raise her curiosity about how I dealt with my own emotional dis-regulation. We call it that as it helps to frame it less negatively which can in itself set off cycles of shame.

The danger in entirely intellectualising an argument is that we cannot then properly deal with the underlying emotional distress which is still there and needs resolving.

She has begun to ask me how I dealt with my own pain and I said the first part was to try not to act it out. For me, it meant self soothing engaging my senses, observing my emotions but not to act them out my hurting myself or others.

We were able to talk about dialectical behaviourial therapy Martha Linehan was a leading proponent.

Edited as accidentally hit the post button early.

I have speculated that some of these positions taken up by the younger generation has been a response to really difficult messaging they are seeing from contemporary society about what it means to be a woman. Impossible unachievable standards and it is the fashionable means to opt out without losing friends. Unfortunately, any challenges to their means of opt out can result in my way or the highway reactions as otherwise they fear social isolation from their peer group. Railing against parents is safer for them.

So my talking about my own vulnerabilities and saying sweetheart you are okay to feel distress but how you are dealing with it might not be the most healthy means and here is an alternative helps.

Our relationship is still a work in progress we go three steps forward and two steps back a l

She doesn’t want people to get along though, she wants women to STFU.

She was going on about Them and Us, as a societal and philosphical concept, whilst missing the irony.

I meant Butler, not OP’s DD, for the avoidance of doubt.

FFS tiny phone fat fingers and it is late…
..two steps back a lot but maybe going ok let me read some Butler let’s walk this road together a while.

You can shred Butler look at my other posts as I have opinions but it is not the time or place for those arguments.

My other half tried that and it got her baddie status when arguments evolved entirely based on rational statements followed by teen wailing, but you do not understand me!!. I accepted that I am not dealing with an entirely rational being (isn’t only at age 23 when we have the most control of our pre frontal cortex?) and soothing the emotional beast first was the priority and we left and shelved discussions until we were both in a place of calm.

Frankly it is not an easy path to stay calm and not mirror their anger or distress but doing everything you can to slowdown the emotional train wreck down is a starting point to more constructive conversations.

I have had to say to my kiddo yes there are days I get frustrated with you, I have low capacity for nonsense but never doubt I love your fiercely and I may get mad but you can always have a hug when you need it. I want above all for you to be kinder to yourself so you can judge others less harshly and somedays that includes me.

Has she been sitting on this 'great truth' for a while and blurted it out now because of the Supreme Court news? s there any way you could get her to read something in exchange for you reading Butler? Something that will show her the damage done by TRAs pushing gender ideology? Something that could make her see that fighting for women's rights is not anti trans?

Is she at university? Living at home?

Hoping you can navigate this. Somehow she is seeing you and women's rights as a monster that she is bravely standing up to. When full of Dutch courage and without discussion.

Maybe you can use that book review as a starting point? Ask her if that’s the book she wants you to read, and then take this bit :
Butler makes a few obligatory remarks about the importance of continuing the conversation, about the need to listen to one another, about the dangers of shutting people down. “We cannot censor each other’s positions just because we do not want to hear them,”

and see if she’ll take that invitation to a civil discussion with you.

If she is willing to engage rather than carry on the emotional blackmail, you could pehaps say that from reading that, it doesn’t sound like butler understands the huge differences between the U.K. and the US. That we’ve just had a clarification of an existing law and the judgment is crystal clear that both sex and gender reassignment are protected characteristics. That the judgment specifically was concerned to protect lesbians. To protect maternity rights for transmen. And that there is no link in the U.K. between the women defending women’s rights to single sex services and the erosion of reproductive rights - feminists here aren’t anti-choice!

@PyongyangKipperbang did this come completely out of the blue, from your side?

Yes, amd my other DD was obviously very surprised at this news too even though they are very close.

She has always struggled with fitting in and knowing her place in the world. She was ok until about...14 ish. Since then there have been several things that she defintely was, until she wasnt iykwim. I think she just doesnt want to be her, and believes that changing her gender will achieve that. "I am not happy as this, so I must be that". Personally I think it is a MH issue, but obviously any mention of that, no matter how gently, is met with anger and derision.

So sorry OP this is awful for you and you've done nothing wrong.

I’m sorry you are going through this. Others will disagree with this . My suggestion is that as she knows your views when she brings it up again you say you have thought about what she has said and she understands what she is saying. If she asks if you have changed your views say that attitude change is a process, she’s had time to think about it but it as new to you and as we age our brains aren’t as elastic as they were but please could she stick with you, you are trying and understand the points she is making.

You are playing the long game here and trying to preserve your relationship whilst dealing with events outside your control. You get put in a difficult situation with your child who has access to very practised people online who give their advice which in my experience amounts to asking would you prefer it of they killed themself if you try to state your case and it differs to theirs in any way.

Do your best to keep off the subject, ‘hi love’ is very useful and if you are used to discussing a variety of issues go for something like Trump if you both agree he is an arsehole.

Be aware that anything you say that is deemed contentious once it leaves your mouth is then out there forever. Focus on the day to day living stuff and if there are any shared interests put them centre stage or find something new, if it is something like food that features heavily in day to day life so much the better and then see if you can extend it a bit into growing herbs and maybe some fruit and veg if that’s something you could see yourself doing. Take up running, theatre, cinema, comedy clubs, anything you can think of.

This will be a huge shock at the moment and it will probably feel nothing will ever be the same again but time moves on and things feel a bit more normal whatever that is. It’s often difficult to navigate that transition of your relationship with them into adulthood and you now have an extra complication to get through.

Some will read this and say I am totally wrong and that is completely fine but I would be very wary about who you listen to. It’s all theoretical until you actually have to live it.

Read Judith Butler, OP, as suggested ... Point out two things to your DD:

1. No such thing as determinate gender identity, Butler agrees.
2. Like many post-structuralists, Butler takes the wrong conclusion from the lack - non-existence - of any transcendental signified (e.g. of the signifier 'woman'). (Essentially thinking modus ponens) she takes this lack to destroy meanings when in fact (going the modus tollens route, perhaps we might say) it makes more sense to deny the transcendentality - the supposed (but actually false) requirement for such a signified to allow meaning to be extant.

If your DD understands this, she'll see how

1. The Supreme Court ruling could not have been any other, and
2. It was always common sense that 'woman' means woman, and that being a woman is biology-based.

If your DD doesn't understand, you can simply emphasise her lack of understanding tout court.

Either way, tell her to get a grip and stop being so silly.

@dlob I really want to understand your point 2 but I don't...

edited to add perhaps that was the point?

It is standard type emotional blackmail, manipulation and threat of shunning that one sees in all cults. It might be worth reading about cults and deprogramming. Healthy movements and belief systems are robust enough to entertain challenge and never seek to distance adherents from those that love them the best.

It also might be worthwhile focussing on the no one will ever love you more than me and you don’t get many people in your life who would take a bullet for you type thing. Also ask her if she shares the opinions likes and dislikes of every one of her friends. Does she know any Muslims/ Hindus/ Jewish people? Can’t she accept that two different people mean two different opinions?. This is adult life. The ability to recognise that other people we love and like can hold very different opinions from us and that’s ok.

Tell her she can yell and scare you into lying and professing opinions you don’t hold under the threat of not seeing her, but what will she gain? It’s like forcible religious conversion.

@dlob I think you're probably playing Butler at her own game here buti would also appreciate a clear language translation. With post structuralism I can't shake the feeling the language used is designed to be confusing to the lay person - maybe they feel more intellectual if only a few people can understand them...

If be really tempted to offer to read Butler etc with her - maybe as a regular book group type arrangement reading a bit and discussing as you go?

This way she has a vested interest in keeping communication open with you. And you can also both understand how you each hot to your respective viewpoints. At the end, even if your logical takedown hasn't changed her mind, hopefully she will be able to see why you think what you think and that it's not borne of bigotry, as she's been groomed to believe.

On the subject of grooming, groomers aim to create distance between the vulnerable person and anyone who could protect them, be they ideologically driven or paedos. So another approach would be for you to reframe (to yourself) that your fight is against them and against their aims, rather than against your daughter. So every action you take will be about nourishing the relationship between you and your daughter, staying close and keeping talking.

"I am begging you to read Judith Butler or any gender socialist and actually understand the issue at hand because until then I want nothing to do with you"

I simply wouldn't stand for this. I would withdraw any financial assistance too and tell her until she wakes up and sees sense, you feel exactly the same.

What I have noticed with this generation is that their sense of entitlement in what we provide is limitless, yet they threaten no contact at the drop of a hat.

Fuck that.

I'm so sorry to read that you were hijacked like this, @PyongyangKipperbang . It's such a difficult time and there is a lot of very black and white thinking and throwing down of gauntlets going on. It's pretty ridiculous given that all that's happened is a correction of willful misinterpretation of the law.

You've been issued with an ultimatum, effectively. I think @AirsAndSpaces has given some brilliant suggestions. I don't know if I can add anything. I don't think it's okay for your DD to make this announcement, demand your compliance and immediate change in views and issue an ultimatum about what will happen and what it means if you won't comply. I think your response, in the moment, was perfect. I would continue to resist engaging with the ultimatum, I think. It's realistic to take some time to process this new information and to reflect on it. The petulance is reflective of the cult, as others have said. I hope you can trust that the relationship you have with your DD will sustain in the long term. I don't know how long the TRAs can sustain this performative pant-pissing. It's very destructive.

I also wanted to thank you, because I am expecting adult DCs/partners to visit soon and had not considered how this might crop up in the face of the SC ruling. What I've experienced in the past is individuals taking the high ground when others are present, but expressing more nuanced views in one to one conversation. A couple of times when I've referenced previous comments, they've been denied. It's a minefield.

All the SC has done is underline the accurate meaning of the 2010 legislation. The reaction is bonkers.