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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do I handle this?!

89 replies

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/04/2025 00:09

Full disclosure, had a couple of wines.

Out for a drink with eldest DD and DD3, who had more than a couple. She decided, whilst obviously drunk, to have an all out "I am not a woman, I am a man, my pronouns are he him, does that mean you wont love me anymore?" She is 20. Eldest DD (27) tried to rein it in, as did I because its not a good time to have that kind of conversation.

I said that I would always love her but I said that I would probably forget her new chosen name and will almost certainly call her by her birth name, but thats not out of disrespect but from habit. She was fine with that, but then went on a rant about JK. She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science". Then she said "Do you believe in my choice or JK?!!!" and I said "I respect your choice. But you know I believe in womens rights". She started saying "Then you dont love me" and I said (I was calm, took a lot of effort) "I am not being emotionally blackmailed" and left.

What do I do now?

ETA that I realised that I said "I believe in womens rights" and that when she lost it

OP posts:
CautiousLurker01 · 22/04/2025 12:41

@PyongyangKipperbang so sorry to read this and have no real advice, having blunder my way through all this over the last few years. In the end we took the path of ‘this is something we will never see eye to eye on, but I respect your right to believe what you do and will always love you and be here for you’ approach. After that I never discussed it in her presence unless she raised the issue - in that case I’d listen, but choose one or two points to counter. eg. “I hear what you’re saying, but I can’t reconcile x or y to my understanding of biology/law etc. It’s not how I understand the legislation” (I have a law qualification) or “that’s not what the textbooks stated when I did the neuroscience module in my Psychology degree, so perhaps I need to revisit the research and see what current scientific research is saying...”

Ie I avoided saying ‘you’re wrong’ or ‘that’s ideological bullshit based on uninformed opinion and immature feelings’ [which was what I was thinking]. I tried to keep it to logic and facts. My DD is 20 any day, and so we are 8yrs into this, and while she would still describe herself as NB, preferring ‘masc’ clothing styles, she does now state that she knows she is a woman, a same sex attracted lesbian, uses she/her pronouns (but Mx on her bank card which I support as I am hoping to have the gender neutral and non maritally-based ‘Dr’ as mine next year). Also has no interest in surgery or hormones any more and even shops in women’s clothing stores occasionally.

I suppose what I am saying is that my instinct was not to back her into a corner so that she would find herself stuck and unable to U-turn without losing face? By keeping emotion out of it, but only responding (honestly yet respectfully) when invited and not imposing my views unsolicited it has given her space to explore and find her way close to a position that is bridgeable from where I sit on this. We had big fights and lots of tears at the start and DH was forced to play the part of neutral party, but by stepping back, keeping things cool, we’ve carefully navigated our relationship around the titanically huge iceberg this issue can be… and managed to remain afloat.

CautiousLurker01 · 22/04/2025 12:42

Sorry, that was an effing long ‘no advice to give’ reply! I am AuDHD… verbosity is one of my major flaws. 🙏

dlob · 22/04/2025 18:12

Evolutionarygoals · 22/04/2025 10:09

@dlob I think you're probably playing Butler at her own game here buti would also appreciate a clear language translation. With post structuralism I can't shake the feeling the language used is designed to be confusing to the lay person - maybe they feel more intellectual if only a few people can understand them...

What I wrote could - should, indeed - be relatively clear to one who, like OP's DD, asked someone to read Judith Butler to back up her thoughts. I guess I thought this DD probably wouldn't understand it ...

But if you want to start to get to grips with the ideas around post-structuralism and hence Judith Butler and stuff, here's a start. (Butler is a really sloppy thinker, and often difficult to follow because of this ... and it's probably best not to take her or her writing too seriously; but, yes, post-structuralism can be tackled on its home turf, so to speak. This will be too brief. But, well, the history is interesting and the ideas surprisingly influential. So here goes.)

I mentioned the "transcendental signified". This is a coinage of Jacques Derrida. Two parts: 'transcendental', from Immanuel Kant and 'signified' from Ferdinand de Saussure (with an important hat-tip to Claude Lévi-Strauss).

Kant specified a form of argument he denoted 'transcendental' (he called his metaphysics 'transcendental idealism', although we won't need to do much with that). A transcendental argument uses the condition-of-the-possibility of something ... like this:
X is a condition of the possibility of Y
Y exists
(Therefore) X exists.

[Kant argued as follows, for instance: (the content of) synthetic a priori judgements (e.g. like those in mathematics) are a condition of the possibility of human experience; we humans certainly have experiences; so some synthetic a priori judgements are certainly well-founded. (That's what Kant called 'The Proper Problem of Pure Reason' solved, in a nutshell. Neat, no? Why it doesn't work? Left as exercise.)]

OK, now 'signified', an important term in semiotics (theories of signs and symbols) within the 'structural linguistics' (as it later became known) of Saussure - or simply 'structuralism', including the work of Lévi-Strauss on societal (rather than, as in Saussure, more narrowly linguistic) structures. (Possibly others too.)

Long story short: signs signify; two parts to this, the signifier and the signified. Enter Jacques Derrida. In order to have linguistic meanings, it seems we need to have signifieds for our signifiers. Otherwise it looks like our signs - including our words - will lack meaning.

The existence of signifieds, then, is a condition of the possibility of us meaning anything by our discourse. The signified is transcendental in that Kantian sense. So it seems, at any rate. But, as Derrida pointed out, Saussurean linguistics (and Lévi-Straussian social anthropology) locate signification only within structure - there seems no actually existing external-to-structure signifieds ('things', 'objects' as Ludwig Wittgenstein called them in his early work). Thus, Derrida concluded, there are no fixed meanings ... meaning is always ineluctably deferred (for which deferral Derrida minted a new word in French: "différance").

Hence Judith Butler and all that slipperiness about meanings and so on. (One aspect of postmodernism.) "What does 'woman' mean? - It's complicated ..." And off we jolly well go.

But there's another possible conclusion to be drawn from the lack of the so-called transcendental signified: perhaps signifieds are not transcendental after all. Perhaps we don't need things or objects for our signifiers to signify, at least in some cases, in order for our discourse to be meaningful. (I mentioned Wittgenstein earlier: he decided he was wrong about 'objects' wrt word meanings, and thoroughly and carefully debunked the whole idea in his later work. Of course lots of the postmodern crew, including Butler, misread Wittgenstein's later work, or simply ignore it, in this regard. Oh well.)

Of course this doesn't say there are no women, anything like that. No, really. The Supreme Court knew - as we all do - what 'woman' and 'sex' mean in everyday life and in law, without there being objects - signifieds - these words - signifiers - signify or refer to. Collapse of post-structuralist slippy-sloppiness and Judith Butler's nonsense.

[I haven't mentioned modus ponens/tollens. These are names of forms of logical argument. Look up "One person's modus ponens is another's modus tollens," to get the point I was making. I've written enough.]

I've over-simplified, but not much. Judith Butler and others do try to muddy the waters, it's true. But hold on to your common sense and you won't go far wrong. If OP's DD really does think Butler successfully justifies nonsense like "TWAW," "sex isn't binary," whatever, it really is just because she doesn't understand what's going on. (DD, I mean. -- Some people think Butler simply a charlatan peddling stuff she knows to be silly, but more charitably, I suspect she doesn't understand either. Who knows? It's obvious nonsense, though, when you read it, the more particularly when you see it in historical context.)

woollyhatter · 22/04/2025 18:35

Sillying the tone somewhat but my favourite Descartes joke is
A horse walks into a bar. Barman says “you’re in here often. Do you think you’re an alcoholic?” Horse replies “I don’t think I am” and vanishes.
This joke is about Descartes’ saying “I think therefore I am”. But explaining that first would be putting Descartes before the horse.

woollyhatter · 22/04/2025 18:42

On a more serious note the think the modus tollens and ponens is an easier way to address it. I asked copilot and here is the answer it came up with

Modus ponens is a logical argument form that follows this structure:

  1. If P, then Q.
  2. P is true.
  3. Therefore, Q is true.
To apply this to Dr. Beth Upton's statement that they are "biologically female," we would need to identify a conditional statement (If P, then Q) that aligns with their reasoning. Based on their argument, one possible formulation could be:
  1. If "biologically female" means having a female identity, then Dr. Upton is biologically female.
  2. Dr. Upton has a female identity.
  3. Therefore, Dr. Upton is biologically female.
This reasoning follows the modus ponens structure, but whether the premises are factually accurate or widely accepted is a separate debate. Dr. Upton has argued that biological sex has no universally agreed definition in science and that their identity determines their biological classification. This claim has been met with criticism from those who argue that biological sex is determined by chromosomes and reproductive anatomy.
BigBadaBoom · 22/04/2025 22:11

I'm not one for formal logic, but I think it's worth putting the correct logical order on changes in human rights in recent history. Namely, that the backtracking on feminism began before the surge in trans rights.

For example, Nuts and Zoo magazine launched 20 years ago, riding off the back of lad and ladette culture and the normalising "feminist empowerment" of male-gaze pleasing plastic surgery. Top shelf magazines at the supermarket, but not wank mags for dirty old men, and not nudie car mechanic's calendars for the ignorant, uneducated masses... now soft porn was for sophisticated, ironic, self-aware university educated blokey blokes as well. But never mind the sexism, "boys will be boys"!

And then came Game of Thrones, beloved of millennial progressives, with its casual misogyny and pornification of TV. It hit our screens in 2011 and treating women as sex objects was back in vogue for the political left, because even in fantasy fiction, sex work is work, and rape on TV is fine as long as it's realistically grim (men, just remember not to get too turned on).

The Guardian loved GoT and no-one in that particular bubble had a problem with the misogyny. People still talk about how the last two seasons lost the story, very few people talk about how it also dropped the misogyny. Notice how #metoo was outlived by twaw? I suspect the truth is that the left never really lost its socialist era misogyny. It just hid it until being a woman-hating progressive found a new trojan horse in the form of trans rights.

WarriorN · 22/04/2025 22:49

Love that post @dlob. It has significant crossovers with speech and language therapy concepts around how children acquire language and meaning. Children with specific sp and language differences / autism can have specific difficulties with symbols (linked to words/ meaning).

which is why this ideology enforced onto children, especially those with learning difficulties/ and or autism, is so very dangerous.

See also Magritte’s Ceci n'est pas une pomme, who I read somewhere also had something to do with Foucault.

WarriorN · 22/04/2025 22:54

@PyongyangKipperbangthat sounds very difficult - I’d keep repeating your lines around that fact that you cannot be coerced to believe something you don’t nor emotionally blackmailed.

You’re happy to have reasoned discussions but you can’t be forced to agree, which, to be fair, neither can she. But your relationship is very important to you and you love her unconditionally.

PyongyangKipperbang · 23/04/2025 00:54

WarriorN · 22/04/2025 22:54

@PyongyangKipperbangthat sounds very difficult - I’d keep repeating your lines around that fact that you cannot be coerced to believe something you don’t nor emotionally blackmailed.

You’re happy to have reasoned discussions but you can’t be forced to agree, which, to be fair, neither can she. But your relationship is very important to you and you love her unconditionally.

Thats pretty much my line now.

DD1 is still in touch with her and said the DD4 seems to be mainly embarrassed that she made a show of herself rather than angry with me. I said that I would appreciate it if she would let DD4 know that I would love to see her before she goes back to uni (she is staying at her dads this hols) and that regardless of our differing beliefs, I love her very much. But DD4 is stubborn and proud (cant imagine where she gets that from.....) so I may not see her until the summer. But I will message her once a month and see what happens. I thought the once a week might make her feel harrassed but one a term isnt enough. Thoughts on once a month?

OP posts:
WarriorN · 23/04/2025 01:45

I think so, I don’t have daughters and my sons are younger but that sounds like a good approach. Perhaps sometimes 3 weeks, sometimes 4? Maybe sometimes a nice card/ post card you think she’ll find interesting. You don’t have to say much in it, just hope she’s doing well etc, sending lots of love etc. you’re demonstrating unconditional love and no pressure for her to respond.

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 05:41

"She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science"" [my emphasis]

I'm still a little baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously claim it as scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex people and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - say "I believe in science", I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

Notmysupervisor · 23/04/2025 07:41

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 05:41

"She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science"" [my emphasis]

I'm still a little baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously claim it as scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex people and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - say "I believe in science", I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

What a horrible, sneering response. Do you feel terribly clever now?

Anyway, OP, I’m really sorry you’re going through this. I have little to add to what has been said other than that our front brains aren’t done developing until c.25 which is why we’re inclined to impulsivity and strong feelings when younger. Your approach sounds loving and compassionate and I very much hope it works out for the best.

myplace · 23/04/2025 07:52

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 05:41

"She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science"" [my emphasis]

I'm still a little baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously claim it as scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex people and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - say "I believe in science", I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

It’s copy pasted bollocks and you know it.

Robert Winston studies science quite a lot and he doesn’t agree with you.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/04/2025 08:20

dlob · 22/04/2025 18:12

What I wrote could - should, indeed - be relatively clear to one who, like OP's DD, asked someone to read Judith Butler to back up her thoughts. I guess I thought this DD probably wouldn't understand it ...

But if you want to start to get to grips with the ideas around post-structuralism and hence Judith Butler and stuff, here's a start. (Butler is a really sloppy thinker, and often difficult to follow because of this ... and it's probably best not to take her or her writing too seriously; but, yes, post-structuralism can be tackled on its home turf, so to speak. This will be too brief. But, well, the history is interesting and the ideas surprisingly influential. So here goes.)

I mentioned the "transcendental signified". This is a coinage of Jacques Derrida. Two parts: 'transcendental', from Immanuel Kant and 'signified' from Ferdinand de Saussure (with an important hat-tip to Claude Lévi-Strauss).

Kant specified a form of argument he denoted 'transcendental' (he called his metaphysics 'transcendental idealism', although we won't need to do much with that). A transcendental argument uses the condition-of-the-possibility of something ... like this:
X is a condition of the possibility of Y
Y exists
(Therefore) X exists.

[Kant argued as follows, for instance: (the content of) synthetic a priori judgements (e.g. like those in mathematics) are a condition of the possibility of human experience; we humans certainly have experiences; so some synthetic a priori judgements are certainly well-founded. (That's what Kant called 'The Proper Problem of Pure Reason' solved, in a nutshell. Neat, no? Why it doesn't work? Left as exercise.)]

OK, now 'signified', an important term in semiotics (theories of signs and symbols) within the 'structural linguistics' (as it later became known) of Saussure - or simply 'structuralism', including the work of Lévi-Strauss on societal (rather than, as in Saussure, more narrowly linguistic) structures. (Possibly others too.)

Long story short: signs signify; two parts to this, the signifier and the signified. Enter Jacques Derrida. In order to have linguistic meanings, it seems we need to have signifieds for our signifiers. Otherwise it looks like our signs - including our words - will lack meaning.

The existence of signifieds, then, is a condition of the possibility of us meaning anything by our discourse. The signified is transcendental in that Kantian sense. So it seems, at any rate. But, as Derrida pointed out, Saussurean linguistics (and Lévi-Straussian social anthropology) locate signification only within structure - there seems no actually existing external-to-structure signifieds ('things', 'objects' as Ludwig Wittgenstein called them in his early work). Thus, Derrida concluded, there are no fixed meanings ... meaning is always ineluctably deferred (for which deferral Derrida minted a new word in French: "différance").

Hence Judith Butler and all that slipperiness about meanings and so on. (One aspect of postmodernism.) "What does 'woman' mean? - It's complicated ..." And off we jolly well go.

But there's another possible conclusion to be drawn from the lack of the so-called transcendental signified: perhaps signifieds are not transcendental after all. Perhaps we don't need things or objects for our signifiers to signify, at least in some cases, in order for our discourse to be meaningful. (I mentioned Wittgenstein earlier: he decided he was wrong about 'objects' wrt word meanings, and thoroughly and carefully debunked the whole idea in his later work. Of course lots of the postmodern crew, including Butler, misread Wittgenstein's later work, or simply ignore it, in this regard. Oh well.)

Of course this doesn't say there are no women, anything like that. No, really. The Supreme Court knew - as we all do - what 'woman' and 'sex' mean in everyday life and in law, without there being objects - signifieds - these words - signifiers - signify or refer to. Collapse of post-structuralist slippy-sloppiness and Judith Butler's nonsense.

[I haven't mentioned modus ponens/tollens. These are names of forms of logical argument. Look up "One person's modus ponens is another's modus tollens," to get the point I was making. I've written enough.]

I've over-simplified, but not much. Judith Butler and others do try to muddy the waters, it's true. But hold on to your common sense and you won't go far wrong. If OP's DD really does think Butler successfully justifies nonsense like "TWAW," "sex isn't binary," whatever, it really is just because she doesn't understand what's going on. (DD, I mean. -- Some people think Butler simply a charlatan peddling stuff she knows to be silly, but more charitably, I suspect she doesn't understand either. Who knows? It's obvious nonsense, though, when you read it, the more particularly when you see it in historical context.)

Your explanation is still, to this STEM graduate, a wall of utter incomprehensibility.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/04/2025 08:24

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 05:41

"She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science"" [my emphasis]

I'm still a little baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously claim it as scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex people and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - say "I believe in science", I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

  1. The OP didn't say that the only options are XX and XY. You've made that up and pretended that she said it. You are deliberately misrepresenting the OP.
  2. The existence of DSDs does not make it possible for a woman to become a man, which is what OP's DD is claiming to be.
CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 08:25

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/04/2025 08:20

Your explanation is still, to this STEM graduate, a wall of utter incomprehensibility.

I thought that too. AM sure it is an accurate reflection of Butler’s writing, but I still don’t get half of what she is saying. Decided I am clearly a little bit thick - and utterly relieved that my DD never demanded that I read it. Am familiar with Derridas from a literary/genre schema perspective, but all the rest just fries my brain…

user1471538275 · 23/04/2025 08:28

View it as cult indoctrination.

Nothing you do or say will be good enough. You'll read Judith Butler, try to discuss it but will be told 'that's not right, that's not what she means'

I would (and have) say 'I'm not going to change my mind. I think it's better we don't discuss this'.

Any 'you don't love me' I'd go with 'love is not conditional, it doesn't force others to do what they don't want to do - that's coercive control'. - because that's what she's doing.

LadyQuackBeth · 23/04/2025 08:30

I think the best thing now is not to argue this point with her but instead stick to "I brought you up to choose your own beliefs, but I also hoped you'd respect that other people will believe things different to you." Kind of line.

It's not what she believes that's the biggest problem, it's how she's behaving.

user1471538275 · 23/04/2025 08:31

@MordantCarnival The biology that you learnt at 14 was simplified to help you understand it.

It's clear though that even then you missed something.

Sex is binary. DSD's are differences in sexual development - differences in either the male or female sexual development pathway, with changes possible from the point of conception to post puberty.

CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 08:36

user1471538275 · 23/04/2025 08:28

View it as cult indoctrination.

Nothing you do or say will be good enough. You'll read Judith Butler, try to discuss it but will be told 'that's not right, that's not what she means'

I would (and have) say 'I'm not going to change my mind. I think it's better we don't discuss this'.

Any 'you don't love me' I'd go with 'love is not conditional, it doesn't force others to do what they don't want to do - that's coercive control'. - because that's what she's doing.

I think the coercive control comment is really insightful. I did once say to my GP that I feel like I am in an abusive relationship, where I have been gaslighted, expressly abused, coerced and emotionally manipulated for nearly a decade. The difference is that unlike a marriage you can’t just leave. And even when they reach 18 you KNOW they are vulnerable, damaged and still very much dependent (the lack of support in CAMHS rams home that there is no one else to take care of them)… so you are trapped. Without relief or empathetic sources of support.

MarieDeGournay · 23/04/2025 08:46

I'm sorry OP that sounds horribleFlowers

My go-to amateur shrink response to these painful incidents between mothers and DDs and DSs is: arguments with mothers are rarely about what the argument is apparently about, they are loaded with lots of other 'stuff'.
They can fly off the rails at the speed of light. I don't thing there's much of a place for reasonable debate, 'We know we don't agree on these things, let's move on' strikes me as the best response.

BTW the poster called MordantCarnival has posted almost the exact same post on a different thread,
Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side | Mumsnet
in which they claim to have been taught incorrect biology at the age of 14 but instead of having learnt the scientific correct biology in adulthood - that human sex is binary and immutable - they've clung to their mistaken beliefs.

They wrote:
I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

They bit off more than they could chew [mordant - bit off - see what I did there?Grin] on the other thread as several posters let them know 'what their educational background was' , i.e. PhDs, and MordantCarnival had their 'pretty fundamental science' handed back to the on a plate.

Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side | Mumsnet

Claim 1: That it's unfair for TW to go in men's toilets because they're less safe there. It's probably true that they're less safe there, but how doe...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5320277-some-strange-contradictory-arguments-from-the-tra-side

Mischance · 23/04/2025 08:52

Just keep telling them you love them.

It is a minefield that I am negotiating with a GC. This is the approach I have taken and it seems to be working. We get on really well and talk about it all and they know I am on their team however hard I find it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2025 08:56

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/04/2025 01:18

Just got this

"I am begging you to read Judith Butler or any gender socialist and actually understand the issue at hand because until then I want nothing to do with you"

I am not sure that sobering up will change anything. She is fiece and determined.

I am heartbroken.

I would take her at her word, read Judith Butler and then ask her if you can talk about Judith Butler together.

Judith Butler's output is nonsensical garbage. So read it and then ask your DD if she can explain some of the more confusing parts to you.

Show nothing but the utmost respect for her, frame it in terms of you wanting to understand, see if she comes to the conclusion on her own that it is nonsensical garbage.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2025 08:57

And every time she suggests that you don't love her, don't rise to it, just say, "Of course I do and I always will. There is nothing you could ever do that would make me not love you."

NotBadConsidering · 23/04/2025 09:13

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2025 08:56

I would take her at her word, read Judith Butler and then ask her if you can talk about Judith Butler together.

Judith Butler's output is nonsensical garbage. So read it and then ask your DD if she can explain some of the more confusing parts to you.

Show nothing but the utmost respect for her, frame it in terms of you wanting to understand, see if she comes to the conclusion on her own that it is nonsensical garbage.

I sort of agree with this, although Judith Butler is probably better off read while drunk.

The only issue would be is that hardcore gender zeolots - or any zeolots of any sort really - can often dig their heels in even further when the illogicality of their arguments or those who they hold up as their cult leaders. It’s the backfire effect.

So it’s how that analysis of Butler’s garbage is presented back that needs tiptoeing around.