Have you ever mistaken a woman for a man?

[Moltenpink]

I’m seeing a lot on Twitter & TikTok about how the new ruling means that women will be challenged in bathrooms if they present as masculine.

I just don’t see it happening. I know women of all shapes, sizes, heights, muscle tone, haircuts. I know butch lesbians and women who have lost all their hair from chemo. I never see them as male in appearance.

Personally, I’m 6ft tall, broad shouldered, I don’t wear make up or dresses but I don’t feel like anyone would mistake me for a man.

Yes, and I've also encountered a lot of people I have been confused about. There was a very muscular person in a women's changing room with me who had male or unisex clothing, short hair and no breasts. Considering their height (under 5ft5), I decided they were probably a woman or transman but I really wasn't sure. I would never challenge or report someone unless they were actually exposing male genitals or behaving in an inappropriate way because I would hate to challenge a masculine looking woman or trans man.

No, I don't think so. I have seen a few pictures online of transmen who genuinely appear to pass, but I suspect even they might not irl.

'I have a private theory that it seems plausible to young people who (a) don’t really have any idea or think about the fact that for large parts of the twentieth century, most women wore their hair short and many did not wear makeup or particularly “gendered” clothes, so they have some kind of idea that it is terribly “gender non conforming” to have short hair and not wear all the contouring/long swishy hair/overdone nails stuff they associate with social media-influenced “femininity”. They are too deep in the present moment to realise that many/most women went about all of the 70s, 80s and 90s in jeans or slacks and an anorak and a short haircut and still weren’t assumed to be either men or somehow making a radical statement about “gender”. They simply don’t understand that for most of the postwar period, mostly only very young women had long hair, and married or older women generally uniformly had short hair styles'

@nyancatdays I have 2 teenage daughters. They were shocked to find out I had very short hair in the late 80s/early 90s. They don't understand why I chose to have short hair, none of their female friends do. They were surprised to see my school photo where the girls had a range of different hairstyles. I also dressed in what they would consider a very masculine way even though I mostly wore jeans, a plain top and Dr. Martens which I would consider quite neutral.

Oops. I've just realised I've posted on the wrong thread. This particular post was meant for another which is discussing whether you 'can tell'
Apologies if I've derailed

I've been mistaken for a man on a few occasions. I wear a work uniform of trousers and polo shirt, but I have short hair and a big nose, so I'm not pretty. For a lot of people trousers + short hair = man. When I mentioned it on here (I was quite upset at the time, it just seems to ram home how unpretty I am, even though now at over 60 I'm not quite as bothered) I was told to wear more make up...

No, I haven’t. But I know several women who have been mistaken for men - these are women who’ve had a double mastectomy due to cancer.

I work with a f-m trans that has had top surgery and alot of facial hair... They've been called a man quite a few times (obviously that's what they want, but what happens now that they aren't allowed in men's toilet but equally not exactly welcome in woman's?)

The examples of ‘misgendering’ above though, can mainly be explained by common assumption : if a child is waiting to use a male facility( barbers) with another male child, the barber probably just assumes she is male, because he isn’t looking that closely at her, and certainly ( hopefully) not attempting to assess her ‘sexually’.

If someone is uncertain about someone’s sex (as a stranger , at first sight) the default would be to use ‘Sir / Monsieur / Signor,’ because a woman is less likely to make a fuss about being mis gendered , whereas a man might react with less tolerance 🤼‍♀️.

Mr Menno has a brilliant video ‘It’s Ma’am’ which probably makes my point more emphatically.

I've met a few young transwomen and transmen through a DEI thing I was involved in through work. It was clear to me what sex they were - and clear what sex the non-binary twenty somethings were too. These were people who had volunteered for this DEI forum, so I may have met transwoman and transmen in other contexts who passed, but I think it's unlikely to be honest.

People have an amazing ability to recognise the differences in people, and the sex of a person is coded into this.

My friend who is 100% biologically female is constantly mistaken for a man. She's very tall 6 foot 3 and is more built than most with a flat chest. She's had so much hassle over the years about it. She's now 31 and it's been constant the last 15 years or so of her life.

I got mistaken for a man from behind once because I had extremely short hair, was wearing a leather jacket & was sat down. As soon as I turned round they apologised

and do you know what??? (And stay with me here) nothing happened! I laughed, they were embarrassed & then laughed & then we both got on with our day because we were adults and not 10 year olds and understood that ‘mis sexing’ someone is not actually literal violence requiring one to take massive offence and retire to your fainting couch

The current argument I'm seeing on SM is that it's easier for men to pretend to be trans men than to pretend to be trans women.

All this does is highlight that no amount of legislation can ever actually keep women safe from awful men. Newsflash - we know this. Pointing out just how awful some men are isn't a good argument for telling us we should just give up on even trying to protect women.

They're also missing the point that it's a crime for a man to pretend to be a transman (ie pretend to be female) in order to gain access to women's spaces, whereas as it's absolutely not a crime for a man to "pretend" to be a transwoman.

Just look for an Adam’s Apple or lack of it it’s a big giveaway. I do know that a surgical procedure can mean it’s removed but I would guess percentage is tiny. Plus if the neck is not easily seen as covered it’s not easy.

I had a M to F teacher at my further Ed college a couple of years ago when I was doing a creative course for fun. They were early fifties like the majority of women in the class and dressed like they were out going clubbing as a teenager.

I work with hundreds of young people and yes, there have been times where I have not been sure or have got it wrong.
I personally have to make an effort to signal that I am a woman. I am heavy-set and muscular, with hands and feet too big for women's gloves/ shoes. I wear clothes cut for men because my shoulders hips and calves are man- shaped.
I even have a deep voice. But my voice is so soft that as soon as I speak it's obvious I am female, and anyone who mistook me at first would quickly realise and forget they ever did.

I can always spot a trans person. Large feet on a TW along with hair pattern shouts man in a dress.

Wider bottom on trans men and smaller feet, with wispy beard shouts woman in men's clothing

I've been wondering how this will impact the boys put on puberty blockers who have 'transitioned'.

Presumably they will pass as female. That was partly the aim in the puberty blockers.
And they've been told they'll be accepted as women.

This is going to be hard to navigate for those boys sold that lie.

Presumably they'll continue to use female toilets etc if they really do pass and it'll only become an issue if they are ever sent to prison or when in hospital?

Or I guess in the workplace they are going to be living in fear of being 'outed' and women objecting to them using female facilities.

What a tragic lie these children have been sold.

No me but I had a friend who was regularly challenged going into pub toilets to the extent she would not go alone. 15 or more years ago though I doubt she gets challenged as much since the rise of trans. She wore male clothes and had short male hairstyle typical masc lesbian.

it still doesn’t change my mind women like this and transmen may be challenged. She would say “I’m a woman” and that was immediately accepted I think that’s reasonable.

i used a carer discount to take my disabled son on a day out yesterday. I have to show proof of disability for him regularly so carry it with me. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect transmen to carry proof they are women for showing management if they are challenged and blocked entry. If that actually will happen after they say they are a woman

Occasionally you see someone you are pretty sure is a man...but presenting as a woman...usually in the press or in media....and I've gone and done some goggling to see if they are trans identified or not. Sometimes it turns out that they most probably are women, but sometimes it does turn out they are trans identified.

i don't think i can ever recall seeing and/or mistaking a woman in everyday life situations and thinking she was a man. I often see young women around in my city, who are clearly presenting as male......not just masculine women or butch lesbians, but young women with facial hair, or who are giving off the obvious vibe that they are trans identified, or likely 'non-binary' ( which seems more popular now for gender non conforming girls).

According to Duff McKagan, Axl Rose was sometimes mistaken for a woman behind because of his beautiful long red hair and slim physique. Until he turned round or spoke.
Funny that it never happened to 6ft 3in tall Duff who at this time was often wearing eyeliner, fishnets or both as part of the then US punk scene.

Except that the GRA specifies that you cannot ask for proof of the person's legal-fiction sex. It's outing, apparently.

OTOH, as the overwhelming majority of trans-identifying people do not have a GRC, why shouldn't we ask.

OTOH (3 hands?) as ID documents can be legally falsified just by asking for your sex marker to be changed, they're not worth the paper they're printed on.

Similar to other's experience, I have been mistaken as a man a handful of times. Mostly in the 90s in my late teens early twenties when wore men's jeans and jacket and DMs and was slim 5' 11". Usually it was older people not paying attention e.g. in busy shop queue. "Mate" instead of "love", that kind of thing.
As a tallish woman I regularly have people looking at my feet - happened only the other day. I assume it is to check if wearing heels.

Disability rights campaigners have, for many years, made appeals for people without disabilities to ‘do the right thing’ and not use the loos provided for disabled people. There are many invisible disabilities that require the facilities provided in these loos and they don’t want people challenging those using them - for this reason. There is no one policing access to these loos, yet no one challenges them being provided. Using them is not a criminal offence, but most (but not all) people think it is inconsiderate and disrespectful to use them if not disabled.

The same can and should apply to female only loos. The conniptions are being had to try and subvert widespread acceptance of transwomen using female only loos as being considered disrespectful and inconsiderate. The reluctance for third spaces is rejected on the grounds that if/where these are provided there will be even greater social pressure to stay out of female loos.

I think it can happen with young people. I was a tall teen with short hair, and depending on what I was wearing, was sometimes mistaken for a boy - and my tall, short-haired DD is very often, as she’s less curvy than I was at that age.

I was at college with a pair of brothers who were slender, long-haired and incredibly pretty (there really is no other way to describe them) who frequently caused confusion. And just the other week I ID’d a young man at work who turned out to be a 21 year old woman.

But I don’t believe the burly middle-aged TIM are fooling anyone but themselves.

Good point. But is it illegal to ask for pored of biological sex? Which is what gets you into the woman’s facilities 🤔

My teen thought another teen girl was a boy. She had a skin fade and was wearing a tracksuit so it was a very genuine mistake.

If she was stood amongst 10 other teenage lads you would struggle to pick her out as the girl but she was so beyond offended when my DD accident said him.