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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What does the SC ruling mean for schools and youth organisations?

153 replies

JellySaurus · 17/04/2025 06:42

What does the SC ruling mean for schools and youth organisations?

Both for the children and for the employees and volunteers.

OP posts:
DeafLeppard · 17/04/2025 08:35

MoistVonL · 17/04/2025 08:11

I don’t think this will affect Guiding or the WI.

My understanding from reading the ruling is that it makes it clear that single sex facilities exclude transwomen and it’s legal to do so. (IANAL)

But that clubs or hobby groups don’t have to exclude transwomen, they can be single gender if that’s what they want.

So we don’t have to put up with transwomen demanding to be allowed to join a menopause group, for example, but if you wanted to set up a women and transwomen book club you can fill your boots.

Edited

I don’t think you can have a single gender group at all - because allowing transwomwn discriminates against men who aren’t trans women. And at that point men would be treated less favourably?

So it’s single sex or mixed sex - gender is now totally irrelevant for most scenarios.

2fallsfromSSA · 17/04/2025 08:35

I have noticed this too from what my own children say, although concerningly "furries" seem to be the new trans in schools around here and all of the same safeguarding red flags are being overlooked.

IhaveanewTVnow · 17/04/2025 08:39

Grumpyoldpersonwithcats · 17/04/2025 07:30

There are trans men who look far more physically intimidating than many men.

Really?

If that is the case they will continue to use the men’s and no one will be any wiser.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 17/04/2025 08:42

MoistVonL · 17/04/2025 08:11

I don’t think this will affect Guiding or the WI.

My understanding from reading the ruling is that it makes it clear that single sex facilities exclude transwomen and it’s legal to do so. (IANAL)

But that clubs or hobby groups don’t have to exclude transwomen, they can be single gender if that’s what they want.

So we don’t have to put up with transwomen demanding to be allowed to join a menopause group, for example, but if you wanted to set up a women and transwomen book club you can fill your boots.

Edited

It will effect them in as much as they (a) will not legally be allowed to call themselves “single sex” services, and (b) will therefore not be allowed to use the single sex exemption, which means that they will be open to all men/boys.

Sex - ie male or female - is a protected characteristic, which means that you cannot discriminate on the basis of it. That would mean (as a first pass) that you cannot have single sex services. However there are provisions to make single sex based exceptions to the rule, mostly so that women and girls can have spaces and services away from men for their safety and privacy.

If you allow opposite sex trans-identifying people into single sex spaces, these spaces immediately become mixed sex spaces. And anti-discrimination law (as above) says that you must then allow any men/boys, trans-identified or not.

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2025 08:43

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 17/04/2025 08:42

It will effect them in as much as they (a) will not legally be allowed to call themselves “single sex” services, and (b) will therefore not be allowed to use the single sex exemption, which means that they will be open to all men/boys.

Sex - ie male or female - is a protected characteristic, which means that you cannot discriminate on the basis of it. That would mean (as a first pass) that you cannot have single sex services. However there are provisions to make single sex based exceptions to the rule, mostly so that women and girls can have spaces and services away from men for their safety and privacy.

If you allow opposite sex trans-identifying people into single sex spaces, these spaces immediately become mixed sex spaces. And anti-discrimination law (as above) says that you must then allow any men/boys, trans-identified or not.

Yep.

😊

MoistVonL · 17/04/2025 08:46

DeafLeppard · 17/04/2025 08:35

I don’t think you can have a single gender group at all - because allowing transwomwn discriminates against men who aren’t trans women. And at that point men would be treated less favourably?

So it’s single sex or mixed sex - gender is now totally irrelevant for most scenarios.

I think you can because groups can set up lots of exclusionary rules - age limits, geographical boundaries, religious beliefs etc.

If you set up a Catholic over 60s club for Exeter, I couldn’t rock up as a 35 year old Episcopalian Scouser, for example.

My understanding (again IANAL) is that the ruling shows it is perfectly legal to exclude people on the basis of sex rather than gender, no matter how loud Stonewall shouted.

But if something wants to organise itself by something other than sex, that is still ok.

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2025 08:49

Any sex segregation has to be on the basis of sex.

It's blindingly clear in the judgement, every nuance and detail has been thoroughly discussed.

Basically, 'gender' is entirely irrelevant when it comes to sex exemptions. (I think 'incoherent ' was the term used.)

The only circumstance where it has any relevance in the EA is that people can't discriminate against someone on the basis of having a 'transgender' identity.

Cool.

Nobody can access services reserved for the opposite sex.

No men in women's prisons.
No boys in Girl Guiding.
No men in women's wards.
No men in womens dorms.
No men in women's hostels or refuges.
No men in womens changing rooms.
No men in womens toilets.
No men in womens sports.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 17/04/2025 08:50

MoistVonL · 17/04/2025 08:46

I think you can because groups can set up lots of exclusionary rules - age limits, geographical boundaries, religious beliefs etc.

If you set up a Catholic over 60s club for Exeter, I couldn’t rock up as a 35 year old Episcopalian Scouser, for example.

My understanding (again IANAL) is that the ruling shows it is perfectly legal to exclude people on the basis of sex rather than gender, no matter how loud Stonewall shouted.

But if something wants to organise itself by something other than sex, that is still ok.

So IANAL, but I think technically you can set up such a group, and generally hope that the people who attend such a group would self-select by meeting your criteria, BUT, if someone who didn’t meet your criteria wanted to join, you would legally not be allowed to exclude them.

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2025 08:50

MoistVonL · 17/04/2025 08:46

I think you can because groups can set up lots of exclusionary rules - age limits, geographical boundaries, religious beliefs etc.

If you set up a Catholic over 60s club for Exeter, I couldn’t rock up as a 35 year old Episcopalian Scouser, for example.

My understanding (again IANAL) is that the ruling shows it is perfectly legal to exclude people on the basis of sex rather than gender, no matter how loud Stonewall shouted.

But if something wants to organise itself by something other than sex, that is still ok.

No. Default is mixed sex.

If you invoke exceptions it can only be on the basis of sex.

You can't say 'group for men and women who feel like men' because that is discrimination against women on the basis of sex.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 17/04/2025 08:51

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 17/04/2025 08:50

So IANAL, but I think technically you can set up such a group, and generally hope that the people who attend such a group would self-select by meeting your criteria, BUT, if someone who didn’t meet your criteria wanted to join, you would legally not be allowed to exclude them.

You might be ok on the age part - are there age-specific exceptions in the EA? There must be…

JoyousEagle · 17/04/2025 08:51

rosemarble · 17/04/2025 08:24

That’s like saying “all Americans are loud”. You have quite likely walked among many, many trans men getting on with their lives and not given them a second glance.

Yes.. and probably just assumed they were a woman with short hair, no make up, wearing jeans and a t shirt (like many women I know). Of course I wouldn’t think “that’s a trans man” because how would I know if they internally view themselves as male? Most trans people don’t take hormones I believe? So most wouldn’t have any facial hair or anything.

WarriorN · 17/04/2025 08:52

2fallsfromSSA · 17/04/2025 08:24

I think it will still require legal action to force a school to act legally and within their safeguarding frameworks. But that legal action has now become much more straightforward.

I get the feeling parents / orgs will have to continue to challenge for some time. Including via courts. But yes it will be very easy.

IhaveanewTVnow · 17/04/2025 08:53

interesting times. But at last we have clarification. If girl guides want to continue to allow boys (trans girls) then they will now need to say they are mixed sex. Otherwise, Joe blogs age 9, who has always wanted to join the guides but couldn’t as he is not a trans girl, will have a clear sex discrimination situation.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 17/04/2025 08:55

Presumably there are going to be some organisations which decide to just make things mixed sex rather than start making their single-gender things into actual single-sex ones, either because they are against the ruling, or because they're worried it will simply be impractical to establish people's sex and exclude them (I'm thinking Parkrun for example).

I'm not sure schools can do that though, or at least not with toilets and changing rooms. And maybe not with sleeping arrangements on school trips.

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2025 08:56

Yes. They may well choose to go mixed sex. It will be clear and any risks will be clear - mixed sex camps, dorms, etc.

WarriorN · 17/04/2025 08:56

My concern is that this has no particular impact on the ideological drive to transition children within schools. Yes separate loos, perhaps third spaces, but that concept actually entrenches the idea that trans kids exist.

And the hyperbole around trans specific vulnerability and special treatment will increase.

It does mean that ridiculous polices where children can attend growing up sessions in accordance with their gender identity are easier to challenge- but we will still have to challenge this!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/04/2025 08:56

mummytoonetryingfortwo · 17/04/2025 07:02

Not a lot.

The judgment was clear that this does not mean that trans people have to be excluded from single sex spaces. But should someone want to set up a single sex space, they are legally entitled to do so.

Reading through the judgment, I'm not sure I agree.

If you are providing a single sex space or service, you are only allowed to exclude the opposite sex if the rationale for having a single sex space satisfies the criteria in the Equality Act.

The judgment makes it clear that if you include members of the opposite biological sex who have a GRC in that single sex space, you are undermining the purpose of that space in the same way as if you included members of the opposite biological sex without a GRC in that space.

For example, if you set up a single sex rape crisis group for women, your legal right to provide that single sex service (which constitutes direct sex discrimination against men) depends on your ability to demonstrate that it is justifiable to provide a service to one sex and not the other, for one or more of the reasons set out in the Equality Act.

Paragraph 217 of the judgment says, "While many women in a female only changing room or on a women only hospital ward or in a rape counselling group might reasonably object to the presence of biological males, it is difficult to see how the reasonableness of such an objection could be founded in possession or lack of a certificate."

In other words, if you are providing a single sex space or service for women on the grounds that women may reasonably object to the presence of biological males, and relying on the exemptions in the Equality Act in order to directly discriminate against biological males, as soon as you allow some biological males to use that space or service (regardless of whether they have a GRC or not) you have undermined your entire justification for providing a single sex space or service in the first place. Because it is no longer serving its intended purpose from the point of view of its female users.

Annoyingly, the conclusion I am coming to here is not that women are entitled to single sex spaces or services, but that it is unlawful to provide a single sex space or service which excludes men if you are allowing trans women to use it.

My interpretation of this is that organisations can't be forced to provide single sex spaces or services, but that it is most likely unlawful to provide a single sex space or service that includes some members of the opposite sex on the basis of how they identify.

That means that organisations like the Survivors Network and Marks and Spencer need to shit or get off the pot. Provide a single sex space or service, advertise it as female only, and exclude trans women from it, or provide only mixed sex spaces and services so that at least everyone knows where they stand.

One concern I have is that many organisations may opt for the latter, leaving women with fewer single sex spaces than they have today. Because not every trans inclusive women only space will actually have trans women in it at any given time. So perhaps it is better for them to exist in their current form than not exist at all.

This is why I think Sarah Summers' case against the Survivors Network is going to be the next landmark piece of litigation. Because if I remember correctly, part of her argument is that rape crisis organisations have an obligation to provide single sex services because failure to do so constitutes indirect discrimination against women. I am not sure that she will win, but obviously I very much hope that she does. The Supreme Court judgment does help her case because it makes it clear that the Survivors' Network is advertising services as single sex when they are in fact not, and so has incorrectly applied the single sex exemption in the Equality Act. But will the court in that case go one step further and agree with her that not providing them constitutes indirect sex discrimination?

RedHelenB · 17/04/2025 08:57

JoyousEagle · 17/04/2025 07:31

But (in my understanding) they don’t have to be single sex. It’s just that they can’t make the argument of “oh well we have to allow TW/TM, because of the equality act”.

Although, if the equality act refers to biological sex, if there a legal justification for allowing trans women, but not allowing other biological males? Can’t they argue they’re being unfairly excluded? Eg the parents of a boy who want him to join girl guides, can they say “well other biological boys are allowed, why not my son?” because by allowing trans girls, by definition they’re saying they aren’t using the single sex exemption?

No, they're going by biological sex which is what the case was about.

Justme56 · 17/04/2025 08:57

ClioMuse · 17/04/2025 08:29

It would be gender reassignment discrimination as the ruling noted

Maybe read the green bit again. The first line says it’s not GR discrimination. The last line says it could be ‘without this exception’.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 17/04/2025 08:57

And presumably boys' schools can't accept girls who identify as boys anc girls' schools can't accept boys who identify as girls, though I don't know if that has happened much. I teach in a girls' school and have wondered what would happen if we had a female-identifying boy apply. No longer an issue now!

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 17/04/2025 08:59

JoyousEagle · 17/04/2025 08:51

Yes.. and probably just assumed they were a woman with short hair, no make up, wearing jeans and a t shirt (like many women I know). Of course I wouldn’t think “that’s a trans man” because how would I know if they internally view themselves as male? Most trans people don’t take hormones I believe? So most wouldn’t have any facial hair or anything.

Slight derail, but it seems that while trans-identifying men tend not these days to take hormones or have surgery, trans-identifying women do still tend to take testosterone and have elective double mastectomies.

I think that in itself speaks quite loudly to the very differing motivations for the two groups…

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2025 09:00

I think it means that a large number of organisations are now highly vulnerable to being taken to court under the equality act for discrimination for historic incidents.

I also think a large number will remain oblivious and will carry on citing bullshit and will also lead to future incidents being taken to court.

The important thing is it will embolden court cases about discrimination.

I really do hope that Stonewall ends up getting sued by someone for their misinformation as part of this.

I think it's going to be expensive for many.

I have little sympathy.

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2025 09:00

I see Girlguiding posted this on FB yesterday.

What does the SC ruling mean for schools and youth organisations?
Riaanna · 17/04/2025 09:02

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2025 08:50

No. Default is mixed sex.

If you invoke exceptions it can only be on the basis of sex.

You can't say 'group for men and women who feel like men' because that is discrimination against women on the basis of sex.

No it isn’t. Because you aren’t excluding women. You are excluding women and men who don’t feel like men.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/04/2025 09:02

Hypercatalectic · 17/04/2025 06:59

I’m wondering this too, about Girl Guiding

I think the impact of the judgment could be big for Girl Guiding.

Because they have (a lot) more than 25 members, they are caught by the rules in the Equality Act regarding single sex associations and charities.

And the judgment is very clear that if you allow trans women (with or without a GRC) to join female only associations, you are undermining the justification for the association being single sex in the first place.

The way I read this is that if they are allowing trans girls to join, it is not lawful for them to exclude boys.

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