Rules in pools

[SmallandSpanish]

I took myself to the ‘ladies pond’ on Hampstead Heath today. Signs everywhere saying ladies only. Women only etc. I was nervous as it was my first time and I was on my own. It was my treat to myself after a stressful morning. I got loudly told off for taking a carefully placed selfie (discreetly, with nobody else in view). Meanwhile the big boomy man parading around in a woman’s swim suit, talking loudly and generally acting like he owned the place was completely free and unchallenged. I didn’t want to ruin my brief moment of time to myself so forced myself not to dwell on it. But FFS. Fuck. Off.

Trouble is, some women, for reasons known only to themselves, will make a point of welcoming these men in and making a fuss of them.

Yep. Every woman who has lost out - a job, an Olympic medal - to a man culturally appropriating women is oppressed.

It is done in poor taste, mocking the idea of being a woman as some sort of costume, and it is not funny nor nice indeed. Nothing like punching down on women to feel mighty.

Explain to me how they are oppressed - they can go into the male section, the female section or the mixed sex section. They have, however, successfully convinced the management that women who want to swim with other women are not welcome. That is not oppression. It is bullying.

Exactly, there is a third space of sorts.

I agree about a photo ban, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Well. In fairness the one rule being applied here - by men, and by women who for whatever reason are into women being subordinated to men - is very consistent.

It's quite simply: 'heads men win: tails, women lose'.

On a sexed, binary basis. Always. Regardless of a whole lot of tripe trying to say that no one knows what sex is, chromosomes, clownfish, it's complicated -

it's never complicated as to who gets all the choices and who gets all the spaces, and who has to step back, go home and cede everything.

There were women who were regular users of that pool who have been permanently excluded because of men and their ridiculous sense of entitlement and misogyny. If there was a grain of generosity or basic interest in 'inclusion' or any sense of actually being a woman among other women, those men would care. They could have asked for times when they used the pool and when it was actual women only. so that women who could only use a male-free spaces had the same 'inclusion' those men were busy demanding for themselves. They could have accepted that a mixed sex pool meets all their needs. But no.

This makes me so sad. I lived in London in the 80s and early 90s, and it was quite a difficult period in my life. The ladies' pond was my haven and refuge. It had such a lovely feel. I wasn't quite a winter swimmer, but I did go from about March through to October. In the spring and autumn you'd meet wonderful older women in the changing room (cold shower only) - one memorable woman who I think was in her 80s at the time described herself as an 'old trout' and had been swimming there, twice a day, since the 1930s. In the height of summer it would be busy but always with a peaceful air. Women of all shapes and sizes would sunbathe topless, have picnics, spend the day there.

Part of the difficult time I'd had was to do with male violence, and the ladies pond was one of the very few places where I felt confident enough to enjoy a swim and lie in the sun. I feel so sad thinking of young women today who need a sanctuary in the madness of London, but this very special one is no longer the haven that I knew. I wonder what those older women would make of it.

Trans IDing men are men, and men are the oppressors, if they're white, they're also the colonisers, and the 'women's pond' has been colonised by men.

Well said

Lesson learned and I’m happy to comply.

The lifeguards certainly put me in my place when they shouted to tell me off (over the loud boomy MAN who was definitely not making anyone feel uncomfortable at all)

Ladies’ pond has been shut for weeks…

I believe while the Ladies pond has been closed the mixed pond has been allocated as ‘Ladies Only’. I imagine this is why the OP has seen numerous signs with this information so that everyone is aware.

No, they don’t. Transmen who present as men, live as men, even take hormones etc are not welcome in the men’s pond. Not allowed. But trans women are allowed in the women’s pond.

Can someone explain the rationale that trans men are not allowed in the men’s space. But trans women are allowed in the women’s space.

for the vast majority of the population, we are either biologically male or biologically female. There is a very small minority of people with differences (for example intersex people). I have known a couple of what I would consider genuine trans women. These were young men who came out as gay, and then shortly afterwards announced they wanted to live as female. I honestly believe that they felt they were born in the wrong body. But lately there seems to be an awful lot of “lesbian” trans women, which makes me so suspicious that these are men wanting access to women’s spaces for nefarious reasons

Can someone explain the rationale that trans men are not allowed in the men’s space. But trans women are allowed in the women’s space.

Misogyny.

Trans ideology is a male supremacist ideology.

Oh yes!

Looks like the mixed pond has been made women only while the women’s pond is being refurbished

Yes, the mixed pond has been designated a ladies pond while the ladies pond is being refurbished. This is besides the point.

indeed as the ladies pond wherever it is located is still a de facto mixed pond

Do you mean the Mixed Pond, @SmallandSpanish only the Ladies pond has been closed since the end of Feb. Was at the Mixed myself yesterday and very nice it was too - largely because there were no men. I don't go when it's mixed because I prefer it when there are no men around, but as you point out, there's no guarantees of no men in the Ladies pond thanks to the TRAs and their mums.

Oppressed minority? Oh please. They're fetishistic MEN demanding their right to parade around in a in a women's space.

I don’t disbelieve your experience, @SmallandSpanish BUT I have been going to the pond for 25 years, not quite daily, and I have NEVER seen anything like what you describe. This isn’t a regular issue.

quoted wrong person. Sorry

and yet, it happened. Not sure why it matters that it’s not a regular thing. My experience on Sunday afternoon matters as much as anyone else’s. And the fact that it did happen illustrates that it can happen again.

To be fair, SmallandSpanish might equally say they don't disbelieve your experience.

I wonder how many women are allowed to share the experience of men meeting men's needs by using women's spaces and the women in them before those women stop encountering 'I don't disbelieve you but' in an attempt to try and paint it as it hardly ever doesn't happen happens, (and if it did it wasn't that bad, and if it was, it didn't matter, and if it did then you deserved it)

How many women is it ok to displace and distress in the name of making men happy before women are allowed to talk about it and be listened to? And what does that say about the automatic misogynistic prejudice in society that even listening to women having a problem with men trampling over them is a bit of a questionable thing to do because it might be upsetting for men to hear?