Residential trip gender identity requested

[Glamoureader]

Thankfully my children go to sensible schools so I haven't needed to dig out any safeguarding guidelines but my child is due to go on a residential trip organised by our local council. They've just asked for everyone's gender identity, they have not asked which sex the children are.

Does anyone have relevant guidance to hand please so I can send it to them?

They are a council, I'm sure they probably more aware of legal child safeguarding guidelines than you are. This is a very normal way of wording the question now on job applications etc., I don't think you can fight them on how they word their question. They will be very sensitive to any suggestion of perceived discrimination. I think you run the risk of creating a uncomfortable environment for your kid on this trip (or making them unwelcome on it at all) for an unlikely hypothetical scenario in your head. I don't know what reaction you think you will get from the council but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be whatever you are after.

Ignore this poster OP.

‘This residential trip needs to have single sex dormitories for safeguarding. So you need to be asking for the sex of each child. Unfortunately you have asked for gender, which, in the past, was a polite way of saying sex but gender now has different connotations of social presentation. Therefore you may get a variety of answers making it impossible to designate rooms’.

A form that specifically asked for gender identity, rather than just gender would ring alarm bells with me.

I think the last few years have shown us that bodies such as councils are clearly not aware of child safeguarding, or are deliberately ignoring it in favour of getting Stonewall bonus points. The OP being advised to ignore safeguarding issues so as not to upset the council is ridiculous. Considering the number of sexual assaults that happen in schools, particularly those with gender neutral or shared toilets, the risk of it happening on a residential trip is far from hypothetical or unlikely.

I’m sorry, I don't know of the relevant guidance but I am sure someone else will.

If they had asked for both sex AND preferred gender identity, Barley might have had a point. But using the latter data only, they cannot safeguard

My ds went on a residential with school in yr 6 to a outward bound centre.

He had a girl in his class who dressed as a boy and called herself a boys name, teachers also went along with it, and whole class called this girl he/him.

We were interested in what would happen re sleeping arrangements on the residential, and sure enough she was put in a boys dorm with 4 yr 6 boys, thankfully not my son.

This is awful advice.

If the LA thinks that gender rather than sex is more important in safeguarding then they will fail to keep children safe.

Failing to safeguard children may have become the norm to you, but that is no excuse.

Any decent council would understand more than reasonable concerns about child safety. If the initial response disregards reasonable concerns then it is something to escalate.

Child safeguarding is everyone's responsibility.

Email the council and say you think the wording of the form is confusing. Ask for confirmation that your child will be placed in same sex accommodation. I'm sure that will be forthcoming.

What @Lovelyview says. This "gender identity" bollox would be worrying for me.

If it was my child, I would prefer to check. Gender identity isn't the same as sex, and although it's a fairly rare scenario, the consequences for privacy and dignity (and possibly safety) for all children involved are serious if the two things are conflated. Why wouldn't you want to clarify? What's the problem with doing that?

They are a council, I'm sure they probably more aware of legal child safeguarding guidelines than you are. 😂Either you are trolling or you really have no idea what has been going on. My daughter went to a council-run facility where the same-sex showers were actually same gender-identity - but nobody had been consulted about this. So, no I don't think you can presume they have the first idea about safeguarding.

Like most people here, it's the accommodation I'd be worried about. If a boy claims to identify as a girl and is put into a "girls" dormitory, my shrieks would be heard in France!

@Glamoureader

For what its worth OP I think these may have been the guidelines you are after?

https://consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/supporting_documents/Gender%20Questioning%20Children%20%20nonstatutory%20guidance.pdf

On reflection I actually would change my answer. Unless they know biological sex and gender identity they will struggle to meet them. It would be worth letting them know that. It was coming from a place where I have never known any under 16’s identifying as the opposite sex (so assumed it is unlikely they’d have any on the trip) and from having a parent who would embarrass me a lot when younger by making a fuss over things when I wished she wouldn’t. It was eyeopening to hear someone has actually had experiences of gender questioning children housed in the same rooms as the opposite biological sex however.

Barleysugar talks of what's normal now on job applications whereas OP is asking about children. Hardly comparable.

Definitely ignore Barley sugar, though I am impressed at how quickly they got in with this response.

Good try…

😂😂

Fair enough Barley, it's not often people come back with a changed opinion.

This guide might help you. It was under the schools and safeguarding section on the Sex Matters website.

https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Edited-schools-guidance-2022.pdf

Section 7 Facilities includes toilets and changing rooms, plus sleeping accommodation.

ETA - this guide. https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Boys-and-Girls-and-the-Equality-Act-May-2021-England-and-Wales.pdf

"Who is it for?
This guide is for:
• Teachers, school leadership teams and governors in both state and private schools at primary
and secondary levels setting rules and policies
• Parents and young people seeking to understand their rights
• Local education authorities producing their own guidance"

Thank you everyone, really appreciate your help I'm so busy seeing red that I can't search for the guidance myself so it really helps that you have it to hand.

I have pointed out to them that they can't provide accommodation by sex if they don't know the children's sex!

Thank you Barleysugar86 for your* revised *response, I wish I could trust the council to apply common sense but today's email shows I can't.

Straight out of the Stonewall and transactivist playbook.

And not the correct legal or safeguarding information.

The statutory KCSIE (Keeping Children Safe in Education) guidance is a good place to start. Paragraphs 205-209 link to the Cass Report, which adds a greater level of detail on why the statutory schools' guidance describes gender questioning children as vulnerable.

The current statutory guidance also then links to the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance. This is where the information about best practice on residential school trips is held. Unfortunately, this specific document is still in draft but in the absence of any other best practice on residential trips, it's a good place to start.

Personally, my approach would be to write to both the school and the council and:

1. Make it clear that you are referring to current statutory guidance in the first instance (KSCIE)
2. Say that although the GQC guidance that is referenced within it isn't yet finalised, it is the only current guidance that is currently available...
3. And then ask them to confirm that they are allocating accommodation based on sex, not gender identity (as per the recommendations in the GQC document).

If they come back saying that they don't recognise the GQC as valid, because it is draft, so won't follow it, that's a bit of a red flag because there is no other available guidance on residential trip accommodation. It depends on how far you want to push it at this point but a "please could you advise which part of the (draft) guidance on residential school trips you aren't happy to follow, when considering the statutory KCSIE guidance" is one way of getting more information. They don't need to comment on the rest of the document, just that section.

Here is the statutory KCSIE document:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/keeping-children-safe-in-education--2 (the 2024 pdf - see paras 205-209)

Here is the draft Gender Questioning Children document referenced within it:

https://consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/supporting_documents/Gender%20Questioning%20Children%20%20nonstatutory%20guidance.pdf (I think that's been copied above too but it doesn't hurt to have it twice 😁)

Good luck OP. Hopefully common sense will prevail and they just haven't thought through the question they asked on the form 🤞

If they insist on accommodation by gender identity not sex, it would be reasonable to ask to see their mixed-sex risk assessment on things like sexual assault and pregnancy. Also covering the risk of false accusations of assault. It seems mad that a school/council would want to run a trip with this level of risk.

Not sure you can quote this given the reputation of AI but on searching google this was the reply after its AI had compared numerous replies:

"For safeguarding on school trips, accommodation should be based on biological sex (single-sex, not gender identity), not gender identity, with shared bedrooms for children of the same sex, and consideration for individual needs and vulnerabilities."

And from the non statutory guidelines which went out for consultation (did this happen?)

In allocating sleeping arrangements such as dormitories, tents or shared rooms for school trips, each child’s sex is relevant. Schools and colleges must meet their safeguarding obligations set out in Keeping Children Safe in Education (KCSIE).

No child should be allowed to share a room with a child of the opposite sex. If a child questioning their gender does not wish to share a room with another child of the same sex, where possible, and only after the school has considered relevant factors outlined above, alternative arrangements should be sought. These alternative arrangements should not compromise the safety, comfort, privacy or dignity of the child, or of other pupils, for instance finding a suitable separate room for the pupil.

https://consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/supporting_documents/Gender%20Questioning%20Children%20%20nonstatutory%20guidance.pdf

If they’re aware of it then let’s hope the practice of it is clearer than the nonsense of asking children for their gender identity.

Job applications are for adults, this is specifically about children on a school trip where safeguarding is of paramount importance, it should be obvious that the two things are entirely different.

That's a massive safeguarding issue. What if the girl had been assaulted by one (or all) of the boys?
What if the girl accused one or more boys of assault, not only at the time, but later (when she has given up being a boy, hopefully)?
How did the parents think this was ok, let alone the teachers?

Did the parents know? The parents of the boys?

I have no idea but agree it was a safeguarding issue.

No one was told the dorms/sleeping arrangements beforehand so we didn’t know how it would pan out.

I do not know the parents of the girl “boy “but it appears they are driving the issue to ensure she is treated like a boy, and this was since about year two or three.

My son was not in the dorm with the girl, I am not sure what any of the parents thought whose sons were put in with her, but I would’ve been fuming if it was my son .

I have no idea if the boys who shared with her were informed beforehand, or if their parents were informed. We were not told who are someone was going to stay with because they didn’t want arguments before the residential.

I presume some parents were on board and okay with it, because they were quite happy to treat her like a boy, and some had even invited her for sleepovers independently with a group of boys.

It was quite tricky actually to know how to address it with my son, because I didn’t want him to think that a girl could turn into a boy, but also wanted him to be respectful.

thankfully, he is now a different school