Boyish girls and girlish boys in 20th century children's literature

[SaltPorridge]

George in "The Famous Five", Enid Blyton

Peter in Malcolm Saville's books set in Shropshire

Nancy and Peggy in Swallows and Amazons, Arthur Ransome

Petrova in "Ballet Shoes", Noel Streatfield

Please add more/ discuss/ disagree etc.

Good point. Must look at Gloin again. No evidence Gloin married - but apparently not all dwarves marry (except gold, of course).
Why Shelob (lit she-spider, not one of Tolkein's most inventive names) is so horrible and has to be female is not clear - does make you wonder about JRR! (Maybe he was another arachnophobe :(

I wish I’d not read it. I can’t remember why now, as I’m rubbish at remembering plots, just I felt it dirtied the original?

I haven't read the books for a long time...but as far as I can remember the girls at Malory Towers and St Clares were quite gender non-conforming by modern standards. No pink sparkly unicorn t-shirts for them.

Interest in appearance was generally seen as a sign of weakness (Gwendoline) and the ultimate goal was to be successful in a violent sport (hockey, lacrosse) or rescue somebody from drowning.

I think they did offer positive role models - but the traffic was one way - masculinity was a promotion, femininity was a demotion - and that still persists.

This is what I have picked up somewhere.

Nat and Peters in Rumer Godden's "The Diddakoi" are groom and housekeeper. They help Admiral Twiss look after Kizzy when he finds her on the doorstep - there are no women in the household. At one point, I think Nat it is who says "women move dust around. I deal with it." Ie, in a rare example of a man in a stereotypical feminine role, the man claims superiority.

I suppose the question is: are the writers merely recording what they know? And if someone wrote a book in which there were male characters behaving in a feminine way, without dissing women, would that be seen as unrealistic?

Rosemary Auchmuty wrote A World of Girls and its sequel, A World of Women, in which she argued all these school stories full of girls and women teachers, being in charge of their own world and organising and managing everything, set girls a really good example - they don't need men to sort everything out.

I think this thread proves there are plenty of examples of girls doing things themselves, whether just as strong girls or as boyish girls. Whereas boys may get to sort things out, but that's mostly their natural destiny, and boys who aren't boyish by nature aren't usually main characters.

Barbara Willard's Mantelmass books haven't had a mention yet, unless I've missed it. Very well written historical novels which are told from the perspective of fairly ordinary people. They show something of what effect the big historical events had on people who were caught up in them but only occasionally directly involved. They have several very strong women carving out a place and a living in societies where that was a huge challenge.

I loved A World of Girls.

I lost my copy in a move about 10 years ago, but I remember her commenting that a lot of girls in school stories, Darrell Rivers for example, were excellent examples of girls who would find it very difficult to fit into the ‘perfect mother’ stereotype which also appears a lot in those books.

True, but many would be of a class where they could afford help with parenting.

True. And so many families who considered themselves poor would still have a woman coming into help, at the very least.

Loads of boyish girls. Very few girlish boys because-perish the thought!

Oh-I forgot Fotherington-Thomas…..

Who is mostly there to be made fun of.

Of course. I was just looking for examples.

Great questions, I'm racking my brain and I think I will be for a while.
( It's just occerred to me that that expression means I'm torturing my brain to extract information from It. Rather, I'm gently encouraging my reflective self to dive deep into the memory pools of childhood fiction!)

Yes the Mantlemass series seems to have been largely forgotten which is a shame because there are some great female characters, Lilias (The Iron Lily ) in particular.

But if dwarves keep their sex secret Tolkien can hardly 'out' Gimli by saying 'daughter of Gloin' - son is shorthand for scion.

One of the books, A Sprig of Broom (title dead giveaway!), details the possible life of Richard of Eastleigh, a supposed son of Richard III. He is not known to have had any children, but then he would want to conceal offspring from the Tudors, it being their settled policy to get rid of (judicially murder) any Plantagenet heirs they could get their hands on.
There are a couple of other novels about Richard of Eastleigh from c. the 60s and 70s.

I think the place to look for the answer to these questions is 'boys own' fiction. We have seen that the 'girl's school story' genre (Blyton, Brent-Dyer, Brazil, etc) produces a number of 'strong, boyish girl' characters. I am not as familiar wih boy's school stories. I don't think there were quite as many. Stalky? Billy Bunter?

Oxenham (Abbey Girls) would be an author where I think the prevalence of 'strong boyish girls' is much less. Perhaps Jen Robins?

As an aside, was anyone a member of the 'GirlsOwn' mailing list in the late 1990s/early 2000s? Where did people go afterwards?

Having older brothers, and a father who ran the church second hand book stall, I read quite a few old ‘boys school’ books when I was growing up - Tom Brown’s schooldays and others of a similar ilk, I’ve fished the name Talbot Baines Reed from the depths of my mind. I can’t really remember the details - bullies were obviously Bad Lots.

Oxenham (Abbey Girls) would be an author where I think the prevalence of 'strong boyish girls' is much less. Perhaps Jen Robins?

Jen’s ‘husband’ Jack Wilmot!

I also liked that while the Abbey books paid lip service to the importance of getting married, female friendships were always at the forefront in the books, and there was no suggestion that characters like Mary & Rachel were missing out or any the lesser for remaining single.

The Little Prince has come to mind.
But I can't think of any adult male characters in children's books who fill a nurturing role, attending to the little things, revealing the significance of mistaken-for-insignificant things - all that maternal / feminine ideal.
Maybe Jim in Huck Finn? The interplay there between gender and racialisation and enslavement is alot to unpick.
I'm still thinking about this, all through the day.

Meryon Fairbrass had a gentle caring side. But it was,of course because he wanted to be a doctor!

I don't think he counts as "girlish" exactly, but I always think Bertie Wooster is a good hero for boys who don't relate to conventional masculinity. He's soft hearted, he's a people pleaser, he mostly wants a quiet life without his friends lugging him into ghastly scrapes, and he's constantly being pushed around by his aunts and girlfriends.

I think Wodehouse put a lot of himself into that. He was rather a meek man who was used to deferring to strong women.

Of course gay readers often interpret Bertie and Jeeves as being in a romantic relationship, but for me it reads more like a close male friendship, with maybe a hint of a father-son relationship (you don't get this with the Fry and Laurie portrayal, but in the books Jeeves is a fair bit older than Bertie.)

The problem with Bertie Wooster as a hero is that he's an idiot along with his undoubted good qualities.