UCU being taken to tribunal over discrimination for 'gc' views

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/gender-critical-documentary-makers-take-ucu-tribunal

The filmmakers of 'Adult Human Female' are taking UCU to tribunal.

I'll try to find an archive copy.

oops, multiple xpost sorry! See you tomorrow.

Yes, and she said the session would restart at 3pm and it did, precisely.

I know @AsWithGlad we are not used to this level of efficiency

Whoops I am late to this party. Not used to things being so efficient.

Now, who looks the most like they have something to hide here?

The phrase ‘beyond the pale’ is an Irish expression we use to describe the area of Ireland that the Norman-English first invaded. The English lived inside the pale fortifications and the native Irish lived outside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale

I did not know that, @UtopiaPlanitia . Thank you.

The Pale being the palisade.

No worries 👍

I’ve seen a few posts on MN being criticised for using the phrase, I think because it’s been incorrectly read as racist, so I thought I’d put all those hours of listening to my secondary school history teacher to good use for once 😊😬

@PrettyDamnCosmic just searched my inbox on the strength of your post - and there it was! See you all tomorrow at 10.30

@UtopiaPlanitia Well that is beyond the pale innit. 😁

Whoa! JFC, just thought I’d scroll through Xand see there’s another tribunal and the amazing NC is back again. How does this woman keep doing this? I hope she retires a very rich, healthy and happy woman.

off to tribunal tweets to catch up. There’s a new series every single week!

The key point is that 'beyond the Pale' wasn't just a neutral description of where people lived - the native Irish who lived beyond the Pale were demonised as violent ignorant barbarians to justify the centuries of conquest and ethnic cleansing which were to follow.

So 'beyond the Pale' meant beyond civilisation, where the savages live.

That's the context that makes it offensive, and arguably racist - the treatment of the native Irish was a sort of trial run for later forms of racism.

I don't dispute what you say, particularly as to treatment of and demonisation of native Irish people, but was that the origin of the phrase? I thought that all early settlements were surrounded by palisades - Iron Age rampart hill forts and the like - so I wonder whether the idea of being 'beyond the pale' would initially have been a general reference to the dangerous, unpredictable outside world, then later used to refer in a derogatory way to the native Irish.

It’s wasn’t used as a neutral description @UtopiaPlanitia…

It, even.

I don't follow exactly what you're referring to, I need a bit more background info to clearly understand your point.

I do not disagree with your point about the original usage being highly derogatory, dehumanising and sectarian about Irish people and Gaelic culture at all Marie, but the criticism of the phrase that I've been coming across more recently is that some people seem to believe that it's a racist reference to skin colour because the phrase contains the world 'pale'. And it irritates me that people are giving out (based on erroneous assumptions) to those using the phrase.

I'm with you. I was aware of the Irish origin of the phrase & use it myself. It's not meant to be offensive but is a fairly anodyne way of describing something which is unacceptable.

Apologies, I meant not neutral in the context @MarieDeGournay had already referenced. The term was used to refer to Irish people as uncouth and uncivilised.

I have never before heard of ‘pale’
in this expression being thought to refer to skin colour.

It is quite offensive if you’re Irish though.
I wouldn’t describe it as anodyne, quite the opposite really.

I mean, I’m guessing you’re Irish yourself @UtopiaPlanitia, and you don’t seem to see a problem with it. But some people will.
I’m also Irish and don’t particularly like it.
I do realise most people won’t know the history of how the expression was used and do not intend to offend. And that’s the important bit. But no harm in informing people on a forum like this, I think, why the phrase is problematic.

Pales and being outside or beyond them have long historical meaning, eg the Pale of Calais. They were just fortified boundaries. Pale is as in palisade.
(I’m Irish)

The phrase’s earliest printed reference is in John Harington’s 1657 poem The History of Polindor and Flostella. The poem sends a clear message, that decent people stay inside the pale.

The poem was published quite a bit after Harington’s death. He also wrote ‘A Short View of the State of Ireland’, having served there with Essex, so I think it’s clear which Pale he was referring to.

I’m not sure if or where the specific phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ was used earlier than that.

WFTCHTJ