St John Ambulance and people with breasts

[CrossPurposes]

https://www.sja.org.uk/get-advice/how-to/how-to-do-cpr-and-use-a-defibrillator-on-a-person-with-breasts/

I think I know what they are saying that it is the embarrassment of performing CPR near breasts (real and false) that is the factor in care not being given but the language is so insulting.

It's so sad to see. Another well respected charity that does such good work (if you look at the full range of courses and initiatives they run) beclowning themselves and looking as if they think the word woman is unsayable.

Wish they'd get a grip.

They have changed the heading!
https://www.sja.org.uk/get-advice/how-to/how-to-do-cpr-and-use-a-defibrillator-on-a-person-with-breasts

The reason a person would be reticent about CPR is because it’s a woman’s chest, not because of the breasts per se. People are not automatically fine if the woman’s had a mastectomy and conversely, if it were a man with breasts (fat or gynaecomatia) that would not be taboo. So actually imo the word ‘woman’ is the most appropriate. Everyone knows that that includes a trans man who has not had a mastectomy and tbh this scenario is so niche it shouldn’t even be a consideration.

I am happy with that - it covers both the specific concern about touching women and the practicalities of dealing with breasts

Men have breasts, as do women. Men can get breast cancer. It is just that breasts are a different shape between males & females.

Oh that's good. And quick. Well done op for bringing it to our attention
(I'd like to think my email was the turning point 😂).

This is one of the reasons that the "people with breasts" wording doesn't work.

Someone who's squeamish/worried about removing a woman's upper clothing to do CPR in case they see/touch her breasts isn't worrying about her cup size.

Many men have more breast tissue than many women, mostly due to weight but also hormonal issues such as prostate cancer etc. I doubt anyone's thinking about those men's breasts before they whip the tshirt off, whereas a woman with small or no breasts may still run the risk of suboptimal care.

Edit: xposted with everyone. That's good they've made an update. PWB is still superfluous given the message they're delivering, but they'd get it in the neck either way so good on them for taking feedback.

Oh cool! A response time in concordance with their broader aims!

@ditalini yeah, I think you're right.

According to the leaflet, breasts are relevant to defibrilator operation.

"The helper should attach the pads to the casualty’s chest, by removing the backing paper. Apply the pads in the positions shown.

• The first pad should be on the upper right side below the collar bone.
• The second pad should be on the casualty’s left side below the armpit.
• If the person has larger breasts, moving the left breast back towards the centre of the chest will allow correct placement of the AED pad."

I’m genuinely shocked they did this so quickly. I am ex-SJA staff and left because they were utterly captured and absolutely blind to anything but Stonewall law.

They haven’t updated point 4 though.

“Correct hand placement for CPR on a person with breasts may mean that your hands may touch some of the breast.”

So now in the world we have 'people with breasts' and men. How offensive to erase women but keep the men in - STJA should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh just seen it's been changed, good news.

I renewed my First Aid training at work recently. Trainer was a no-nonsense older woman who talked about women and bras during CPR, and the difference between how men and women describe heart attack symptoms. It was a really good course.

This

And as it's my breasts that have been the focus of a great deal of the harassment I've received including serious assault, i find the phrase weirdly victim blaming...like if I don't like the second rate medical treatment or the harassment I should get rid of my breasts. Which is of course exactly what genderism advocates.

@CrossPurposes Great that they've changed it! Thanks for highlighting this.

the difference between how men and women describe heart attack symptoms. It was a really good course

See, if the differences between how MALES and FEMALES experience and present with Heart Attack symptoms were more widely known then maybe there would be fewer instances of 'people with breasts' requiring defribrilation or CPR.

It was very thoughtless.

This is their response, which TBF, I am happy with.

Please let me reassure you we are committed to appropriately representing women. We demonstrate this commitment in the work we do in communities, as well as our online content.

Recently we have highlighted research finding fewer women receive CPR than men because of social fears about touching breasts in an emergency. However, this issue is not exclusive to women, and we used the terminology ‘people with breasts’ on our website to reflect the wider social problem. We have now reviewed our web content following feedback, and we are adjusting the wording to ensure these pages will more clearly represent everyone St John seeks to help.

I hope they have Had A Word with whoever put PWB in, because otherwise it was a positive campaign aimed at getting appropriate prompt care to women.

The PWB person has caused a whole lot of unnecessary hassle to St J A, which is a shame because judging from the motivation behind the campaign, and their response, their heart is in the right place - pun unintended, but I'll let it stand

Pretty pissed off.

And persons with willies?

We are called women!

I am fed up.

I'm a woman, I wish to be called a woman.

If they want to caveat this with transgender women or men with breasts than so be it. But call me a woman please.

Please stop trying to accommodate everyone else, and not thinking about the impact on women.

Yes, hopefully they reflect on why presumably several people, assuming some sort of checking and sign-off of the text, let their eyes just slide over the word "men".

At this stage honestly I do believe it's a knee jerk reaction to the words "woman" or "female" and not considering inclusion at all.

Sadly I doubt anything will actually have been learned though and the feeling will be very much angry-women-sooooo-annoying.

Absolutely.

I think we ought to organise protests. Women dress as men, and on mass go into men's changing rooms and make them feel uncomfortable. Had enough now.

Why not say 'person with a penis'? I ❤ mine 😉