St John Ambulance and people with breasts

[CrossPurposes]

https://www.sja.org.uk/get-advice/how-to/how-to-do-cpr-and-use-a-defibrillator-on-a-person-with-breasts/

I think I know what they are saying that it is the embarrassment of performing CPR near breasts (real and false) that is the factor in care not being given but the language is so insulting.

"person with breasts"

Hey - that's me.

I think...

Yes, I sympathise with some of the sentiment - they are pointing out that it will be necessary to touch breasts and remove upper clothing to use a defibrillator.

I'm less sympathetic with their use of bra and binder interchangeably. One is a health risk, the other isn't. It's not even as though all women wear bras. They should just say remove all clothing.

Fundamentally, the reason for the hesitancy is the perception that the other person is a woman.

Why not say person without breasts rather than men?

It's the double standard that gets me.

Being charitable i thought they were meaning large breasts.

Since men and children also have breasts. Just flatter ones.

The giveaway to their misogyny is the headline:
"People with breasts are statistically less likely to receive bystander CPR than men, let's change that".

In one sentence they've reduced over 50% of the population to being "people with breasts" while men, as usual, are simply men.

Shame on them.

I really thought we were getting past this nonsense.
Given me an idea for a name change sometime, tootits.

It doesn't even make sense, because from this point of view 'men' includes people who would be wearing binders.

😭

Precisely. If the inclusive type people can't see the double standards here then we are lost (actually we are lost).

One can only assume that the ejaculators in charge at St Johns are using this campaign as an opportunity to express their distaste / dislike for women? Unable to contemplate using the word woman in relation to bodies and biology. Not fit for purpose are they?

Shame on whoever put in the words 'People with breasts', but in fairness, the aim of the exercise is not misogynistic, it is to make sure that women get CPR when they need it, and to train paramedics to be prepared to do CPR on women's bodies - even women's bodies where the breasts are bound.

I think basically this is a positive idea, ruined by the 'PWB' thing - paramedics may occasionally encounter a male 'person with breasts', but these CPR/defib instructions wouldn't be any different because the 'breasts' were attached to a male body.
So they'd use their common sense 'oh - this is a man with breasts - right - let's get going' and proceed with the correct CPR/defib-with-breasts procedure, regardless of the sex of the casualty. Ditto finding that the 'male' casualty is a woman wearing a binder, so again: proceed with the correct CPR/defib-with-breasts procedure.

'Woman' would have worked perfectly well instead of 'PWBs', and it wouldn't have drawn this negative attention towards something that is positive for women.

🙄
I was a St John Cadet back in the 80s. How things have changed.

Absolutely disgusting. The word "Men" should be replaced with "people without breasts" to be a likewise term. The misogyny is shocking and I'm tempted to write to them and complain.

Fully agree @MarieDeGournay. It's an important campaign. But as always in the hands of trans captured charities, an important initiative aimed at saving women's lives is sabotaged in favour of pandering to men who hate women.
(see maternity care, cancer charities, therapists etc)

https://www.sja.org.uk/contact-us/comments-compliments-and-complaints/

Also..... "Correct hand placement for CPR on a person with breasts may mean that your hands may touch some of the breast. This is okay."

JFC, do we really need to spell out that it's ok to touch someone's breast while performing life-saving treatment?! I actually despair

I’m not a raging transphobic and am not fully up to speed with the ins and outs
of this debate, so very grateful to have these examples of misogyny pointed out on Mumsnet. The way the word “woman” has been so casually erased from state, public and charitable institutions, is deeply troubling. It’s so widespread too!

Are women with breasts not allowed to be mentioned any more? There was a time, before clean water and formula became available, when humanity depended on women with breasts for survival.

I would want all minorities to be treated with respect, but you don’t help their case by correspondingly alienating the majority.

I thought protecting a minority meant giving it equal rights as the majority, not allowing minority rights to take precedence over the whole.

I used to have a lot of respect for St John’s ambulance as they do a lot of good work but shame on you for this! Particularly when women’s cardiac issues are so overlooked, dismissed and mistreated, and by some wierd logic they think that not mentioning the word woman in this campaign is going to rectify the situation?

Maybe it's because people are so scared of being accused of abuse, even if that 'abuse' saved your life.

I get why... but I still despair that this is what it's come to

I don't wear a bra, but I am a person with breasts.

You could have women who were naturally virtually flat chested to the point no breasts were visible, or they had them removed due to cancer.

So just saying 'women' doesn't quite cover it.
I don't really know what else they could say tbh.

'People wearing a bra or a binder'? But again that's normalising binders and some blokes might wear a bra for a sexual thrill without being in possession of breasts?!

Oh I agree entirely. When I learnt first aid, it was all very matter of fact - do what you need to do (with care, respect and dignity) to help the patient.

People with breasts, people without breasts and "in the course of treating the person, it's OK to touch them"
That seems to cover it.

Thanks for this. I've just sent them an email

That's another good point about this campaign, rosemarble. It shouldn't be necessary, as so many PPs have rightly said, but .. this is where we find ourselves.

Giving paramedics specific training on CPR/defib procedures involving breasts may result in more women surviving cardiac events, and that's a good thing.

Even giving them the knowledge that they may encounter scenarios where a female casualty turns out to be a man with 'breasts', or a male casualty turns out to be a woman wearing a binder, and the confidence to do what has to be done without fear or hesitation, is not a bad idea.

A different heading on the page, saying 'women' not 'PWBs', would make a big difference to how it is perceived.

edited to add: if I was contacting St John Ambulance, I'd emphasise that I was objecting to the phrase PWBs, but as a woman I welcome that they are moving away from taking the male body as the norm, and more women will hopefully get the correct treatment more promptly because of this campaign.

I don't think anyone is going to think 'thank goodness this woman has a flat chest, I have no concern about touching/revealing her breasts.'