Lesbian mistaken for trans woman in woman's bathroom in Arizona

[Christinapple]

https://www.advocate.com/news/lesbian-mistaken-transgender-arizona-walmart

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/masculine-looking-cis-woman-confronted-by-cops-in-walmart-restroom-kalaya-morton-demands-justice-video/ar-AA1AdWpn

But I thought people "can always tell"?

It also led to the irony the only males in the bathroom were two male police officers who were notified by a store employee who mistakenly thought a male had entered the woman's toilets.

"In an alarming incident at a Tucson, Arizona Walmart, 19-year-old Kalaya Morton*, a Black cisgender lesbian, was confronted by two male sheriff’s deputies while using the women’s restroom, sparking outrage and a demand for accountability.
Morton, who identifies as masculine-presenting or a “stud,” recounted the humiliating encounter that occurred when a store employee erroneously assumed she was a transgender woman. The saga began innocuously enough: Morton had entered the restroom with her ex-girlfriend, who was kindly handing her a tampon— an act of friendship that, unfortunately, soon spiraled into something far more troubling. In an exclusive interview with The Advocate, Morton detailed her shock when the two deputies barged in, shining flashlights into the restroom stall.

“You have to get out of here. You have to come out. We need to talk to you.” Imagine trying to pee in peace, only to have the police storm in like it’s an episode of Cops: Restroom Edition.
“I’m still using the restroom. I’m sitting down, I’m peeing. What is the issue?,” Morton incredulously told the deputies as she sat there.
Now, while most people hope for a streamlined bathroom experience, Morton was treated more like a suspect than a bathroom user. The deputies apparently needed to crack the case of “Who Looks Like a Man in the Ladies’ Room,” a particularly absurd mystery, if you ask us."

Why is the issue of what men who don't identify as women do relevant? Are you under the impression that we welcome in other men but exclude "trans women"? Bizarre whataboutery.

Thank you for putting this so well Catiette. It strikes chord with me because I was attacked in a station toilet years ago. The bloke didn't "identify as trans" as far as I know. So yes, you're right @LucyMonth, he didn't have to put a dress on to get in there and attack me. But you know what? I felt confident in challenging him, what with him being a bloke in a women's space and all. And I felt confident that the station staff would back me up too. Nowadays? Not so much.

I thought I might have something in common with you Lucy because you spoke of being attacked in women's toilets. I empathise and thought that would give us some common ground. But all I'm hearing is "we need much, much more robust solutions than excluding trans women from womens spaces". But I've asked a few times now and I still don't know what you think these robust solutions are. However many times you write ACTUALLY in capital letters.

Want to know my robust solution, based on the experience I've just described? Keep all male bodied people out of women's single sex spaces. Allow women their right to challenge someone in a women's space. No, we can't prevent all attacks but we can cut down the opportunities for men to commit them.

It isn’t at all “whataboutery”.

Do you want women to be safe when they use public bathrooms? I assume yes. Ok so women are much, much, much more likely to be attacked in a women’s bathroom by a cis gendered man than a trans women. So why are we focusing on solutions that ONLY prevent trans women from using women’s spaces? Why aren’t we looking at solutions that keep us safe from all types of men?

Why do you keep using cis gendered?

None of us believe in gender on here.

They're all men. There is no difference between a transwoman and any other man.

The thing is , the fact that you persist in using 'cis gendered' gives you away.

There is no solution, other than to say no men in women's toilets!

What we're actually objecting to, is the official sanctioned premise that yes, men should be banned from women's toilets, except men who say some fucking magic words.

You're saying all men should be banned from women's toilets, except predators, voyeurs, exhibitionists and men who couldn't give a fuck about women's boundaries.

Because it's those men who will say they're not men!

Er, whut? Statistics don't work that way.

No males in women-only spaces is a solution that keeps all male people out.

does it really have to be spelt out to you that it is about keeping out ALL men including the ones in spiny skirts Lucy? Please tell me you don’t seriously think we’re fine with other men just not the ones in dresses??

I mean for fucks fucking sake!

Clearly because of the important detail that her girlfriend was handing her a tampon.

Interesting article from Forbes here:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariannajohnson/2023/03/10/5-ways-to-tell-if-someones-lying-according-to-the-experts/

Point 5: Talking too much: Research from Harvard Business School found those who lie tend to say more words in an attempt to stretch the truth. This includes adding extra details to convince other people or themselves what they’re saying is true. The research also found liars speak in more complex sentences, use more profanity and spoke more in third person than truth tellers

How does one tell the difference between a ‘cis gendered man’ and a trans woman?

How does one know the difference between one who wants to cause women harm to one who doesn’t?

Do you understand the basic concept of safeguarding and why exclusion based on sex exists in the first place? (I would wager that you don’t). Good men stay out (including transwomen) so the bad ones stand out.

Yes, it is 100% a setup. Those 'Advocate' trolls truly thought they could fool us.

If men who say they are women are allowed in, this allows ALL men in. Any man can say he’s a woman without having to look like one. He can have a full beard and moustache, a stereotypically male haircut and dress in men’s clothes and say he’s a woman and too many of the population have been intimidated into not saying anything. There is nothing to stop any man coming in and that makes all women more vulnerable.

Ah.

You are wrong.

I don’t particularly want to show you individual cases but lots of women and children have been led into these types of toilets you prefer and been assaulted. If you want to google ‘disabled toilets and rape’ or ‘train carriage rape’ or ‘school disabled toilet rape’ or ‘school cupboard rape’ in enough varieties you’ll get the very depressing picture. I used to hate to draw attention to it but it so common that I don’t think it will make any difference. There’s even been one unusual case recently where a woman was raped in a train carriage (without being in the toilet) with witnesses and no one intervened.

The 2 consistent things are: both sexes are there. It is private inside the cubicle so no one witnesses it.

So to prevent assaults the safest is single sex toilet areas with semi private (doors with gaps) cubicles.

When you are sitting on the public loo you have an idea who is next to your cubicle because you can see down through the gap. You can tell if someone is waiting. It would give you time to text someone if you needed help and you were on your own. If you suddenly collapsed or were attacked, people would know because they could see through the gap how many people were in the cubicle or if you were on the floor.
Because it is known people collapse in the type of enclosed toilet you describe as your preferred option, they have to have a mechanism to open it outwards from the outside. So people have been known to let themselves in to the unsuspecting occupant. Of course your toilet is acoustically sound and visually no one can see in.

I apologise for having to spell it out but they are unsafe.

The other thing, as someone else pointed out, is this design does not work when you need to get as many people in and out of toilets in a short time slot such as school breaks, theatres etc.

This is a rushed answer as I am off out but if you want more info I can supply.

LucyMonth · Today 20:57

So what are we going to do about the 48% of men who pose a risk to women?

48% of male prisoners claiming to be women, in the UK, are incarcerated for sexual and violent crimes against women and children. K Stock estimates that may be too low and that it's actually 70%

That's compared to 18% of the general male prison population.

There's a website called transcrime.co.uk - have a look at that, a long, good look and see if you still feel that men claiming to be women represent an insignificant risk to women and girls.

Also, look at terfisaslur.com

If you read and look through them and still conclude that they are no risk, I don't know what to think.

@LucyMonth

i'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you're posting in good faith.

You seem to think that there are two different cohorts here. And why are we concentrating on the one who are statistically smaller.

There are several reasons why we are concentrating on that cohort.

But the overwhelming one is the cohorts are exactly the bloody same.

Men who want into women spaces, and are determined to do it, are the problem. It doesn't matter if they're not out and out rapists. Bullies, creeps, voyeurs, etc, all want in.

And you know what, it doesn't even matter about the men. Or their motivation

The women don't want any men in there. Not their dad, not their son's friends, not their best mate.

The specific issue here, is that, schools, universities, the police, the NHS and the government all think there is a subset of men who should be allowed in.

Even though a large part of them are proven fetishists, even though prison statistics say they're more likely to be predators, and even though women don't fucking want them in there.

if you're trying to keep all snakes out of the snake pit, because one or two are poisonous, you're gonna be right fucked off if people say why are you only concentrating on the poisonous ones.

But females being sacrificed for males is ok - wow. 🙄

I have offered a solution firther up the thread that you must have missed. There have been studies done on this.

Individual genderless bathrooms not gendered toilet block are safest for everyone. In a public space people should walk directly from that space into a cubicle eg directly from the main area of the train station into the cubicle and not into a block where they share the space with other people out of sight from the main area.

Toilet blocks are often up or down stairs, hidden around corners out of the way etc. Individual cubicles accessible in plain sight keeps everybody safe. It’s an extreme example but if you imagine a man trying to assault a woman in a porta potty at a festival…much much harder (nearly impossible) than in a toilet blocks. It’s too visible. It’s too easy to be heard.

In order to really truly keep trans women out of women’s toilet blocks the only way to do that would be to require everyone to carry ID with their biological sex on it and to have to show it to someone or scan it whenever you use a gendered toilet block of any sorts. Or genital inspections. Both seem kind of insane.

People love to say they can “always spot a transgendered person”. No they can’t. So simply banning trans people from toilets doesn’t work. You’d have to enforce it. I think doing away with toilet blocks as a concept makes much more sense and is much less invasive and dystopian.

We can’t have toilet monitors in every supermarket, train station, airport, shopping centre, restaurant etc to make sure no trans people are slipping in where aren’t supposed to. & relying on the public to report it isn’t practical. They get it wrong, not everyone is confident with confrontation and it’s kind of putting the cart on after the horse has bolted.

No I did not miss it. Here was my answer:

What keeps everyone safe are genderless single toilet cubicles instead of gendered toilet blocks.

No they really don't. But I'll let keeptoiletssafe answer that!
In any case, you are talking about one scenario - a shopping centre. It is really not possible to redesign all buildings to accommodate the single cubicle model.

Have you read the post from Keeptoiletssafe?

she's an expert in how to make toilets safe (fully enough!)

Absolutely.

The demand for these expensive facilities will result in less and less public toilets being made available.

All to appease a tiny minority of men.

No thanks.

Now prove that your "Safe" sub-class of males are as a sub-class less likely to engage in sexual offend or VAW than males as a whole.

You jumped to a conclusion that the police were responding to a call about your "Safe" sub-group not the common garden variety male.

The caller had a belief that a male had entered the bathroom not a male in a dress but a ordinary run of the mill male.

So what makes female spaces safer if people are obliged to not call the police?

How is objecting to any and all males in female spaces a "bad" thing?

What is your proposal

TRA have created a situation where any male may enter a female space, and people are no longer supposed to challange that action.

What is your solution to mantain the current public facilities for bathrooms and other female spaces which are as safe as possible?

Risk can not be totally removed as Men (95%+) will continue to offend so what changes can be made to existing spaces to better protect women?

And this is exactly where selfish, entitled and delusional men have gotten us.

Women are on high alert all the time.... yes this was wrong, but we all know 'why' this happened.

It's almost like men don't actually have to pretend to be women if they wanted to access a toilet to harm a woman..

Social contract keeps them out. Such as when word gets around what happened at this place, trans identified men (and men in general) might be less likely to chance it.

Just how it used to be 10 years ago.

It isn’t to appease trans people…it’s to make women safer when they go to the toilet. Banning trans people doesn’t make women safer because it is overwhelmingly cis gendered men who are attacking us in our toilet blocks.

If you think it’s too disruptive and inconvenient to install individual toilets to keep women safe then you don’t really care about keeping women safe. Or you don’t actually think the issue is as big of deal as you are making out. It is just factually correct that cis gendered men are attacking us in our bathrooms at much higher rates than trans men. So if you want women to stop being attacked by men in bathrooms then we need to redesign the bathrooms because right now we are being attacked in them by men. All men. Not just trans.

Yay!! We finally got the transactivist 's "genital inspection" obsession.

It's really not a thread without that creepy trope being uttered. 😂😂