It's an IWD one

[sankacoolrunnings]

So a member of my team is organising an International Women's Day event. It's a public event. It has selected women involved as a panel type thing.I found out today one of the women is a trans woman. I asked do the other women know and it may make them uncomfortable / they may not have wished to participate. I was told "they shouldn't even have those thoughts and I will tell them!"

Speechless. We are policing thoughts now it seems.

We are captured as an organisation though so I can't really do anything. If I say any more than this I will be the one in trouble when actually I am looking at this from a reputation point of view and damage it could do. FFS.

Just following up on this one. I am being framed as "uninclusive" to co-workers and that I shouldn't have had this conversation despite it being a genuine question and being entitled to assess for risk as part of my role.

It has not yet reached HR but could do. I have not spoken to the person involved as don't want to give any excuses to have more accusations thrown around.

It's currently Alphabet month, and most of the summer is devoted to Pride. Could you frame it that the trans identifying male colleague's unique and valued perspective is needed more on those occasions?

You're standing up for the law, for truth and for fairness. Any accusations levelled at you are extremely easy to bat back again in a way that HR will be happy with

Got anythign in writing?

If it was me I’d contact an organisation like Sex Matters and explain your concerns about what has happened. If they can’t help pretty sure they will know someone who can. It may put your mind at rest to get advice from people who are well informed on this subject.

So sorry OP this really sucks but remember they’re relying on you to curl up & grovel which is why they always come back so aggressively

as it is, the facts are a male member of staff who is possibly junior to you(unclear) has been appointed to set up IWD? And has complained because you asked a question?

id be making my own complaint to HR about sexism

I’m sorry. I’d continue to play dumb- big eyes, go along, but of course, can I just check, how interesting, is it really? I just want to make sure we don’t get anyone into trouble/are meeting all our responsibilities, That’s good to know…

And get help from the resources posted above.

You do not deserve this.

OP, huge sympathies to you on this.

please can I encourage you to get on the front foot here? My line would be the following (caveat I might not believe all this but it is what I would say)

• of course we should hear from trans people. But why are we diluting that perspective in an event for a different protected characteristic? Isn't that unreasonable and not giving them enough attention? Why is my colleague diminishing their contribution in this way?
• and let's make sure we understand that under the equality act 2010 the female sex is a protected characteristic and there are explicit safeguards to ensure it is legal to have single sex activities precisely so people can overcome the discrimination women sometimes face. If we don't respect that on the key annual day for this characteristic I think we risk being on dodgy legal ground

i am totally focused on inclusion but also focused on the reputation and legal risk of the firm and I can. Understand that my junior colleague isn't experienced enough to manage both these factors and I should hope the company is glad that I am doing so

now, why is a man organising IWD? Are there women we have passed over for this career opportunity? Is there any risk of discrimination for us in getting a man to do it? Surely there should be trans people organising trans events, gay people organising gay events and women organising women's events?

In the event that this goes any further you might want to start preparing your own complaint that your colleague is not respecting your protected gender critical belief that sex is real, is important and is immutable.

Unless you have expressed your views in a way that a reasonable person could find objectionable, I believe you are entitled to at least question whether somebody who is male should sit on an all female panel, or that at least people ought to be aware that the person in question is not a woman by birth. (I'm not sure if you are saying this is meant to be an all female panel or not, but I think people ought to be at least aware whether IWD panel members are men or women).

All this was decided in the Maya Forstater case which you can find a summary of in Wikipedia (although nothing on Wikipeadia is 100% reliable) Forstater v Centre for Global Development Europe - Wikipedia

To just quote quickly from Wiki, Forstater won her case "... after the appeal tribunal concluded the belief that "biological sex is real, important and immutable" met the legal test of a "genuine and important philosophical position", and "could not be shown to be a direct attempt to harm others." As such these beliefs were afforded protection under the Equality Act

I would also echo previous advice to contact Sex Matters and you could alos try the Free Speech Union. (Note they are not a workers' union, they are a group that supports the principle of free speech)

NB - I'm not a lawyer and I'm not qualified to give you legal advice. I'm simply stating my opinion based on a layman's understanding of what i think is the law. Hopefully this complaint will go no further and you won't need to do anything. However, if it does become a problem definitely contact Sex Matters and the FSU, and you might need paid for professinal legal advice.

But if your employer has any sense they won't let this progress

It's not Kirklees Council is it? Their poetry event for IWD was hijacked by a 22 year old man banging on about their experiences as a woman. Utterly sickening.

Turn it on its head OP.

You have been following the well publicised case that is ongoing. The transwoman in that situation has described the tribunal as traumatic and you don't want history to repeat itself now that legally GC views are legally protected.

You were only thinking about the wellbeing of the TIM.

There is something in writing to me yes.I haven't responded unsure whether it will inflame it more or I should do so and "box it off."

I did not at any point express my views as I knew that would go down like a lead balloon. I simply pointed out that there were some opposing groups and were they aware of each other at which point he went stratospheric. I didn't actually say much at all.

Spoke to some trusted colleagues who are saying just ignore it and this person has calmed down and forgotten about it.

Person junior to me within a matrix management system so I am not their direct manager but have some oversight.

I am so irked that I'm treading on egg shells around someone junior to me for merely raising a valid point.

The fact they put this in writing framing themselves as a champion of DEI and from a vulnerable group now feeling unsupported just makes me think they knew exactly what they were doing in actually putting it in writing.

I'd be tempted to make a complaint about him yourself.

You're upset to have had spurious and unfounded accusations made about you by this man, simply for asking a question about whether a trans woman should be featured so heavily on International Women's Day when there is only one day in the year dedicated to women and several months dedicated to trans people, and when this is known to be a sensitive and controversial subject.

You're confused about why a man has been chosen to organise an event for International Women's Day in the first place. Wouldn't literally any woman have been a more appropriate person for this task?

You're horrified that the man who has been chosen for this task thinks he's entitled to dictate what opinions women are allowed to have about International Women's Day and women's rights in general. Even if, hypothetically, a man could do a decent job of organising an International Women's Day event, this particular man is clearly particularly unsuitable for the task.

You're having some concerns in general about whether the organisation is up to speed on the latest legal developments in this area and aware of its responsibility to respect all protected characteristics (not just a select few). You think this man in particular could benefit from some training on the other protected characteristics and the implications of the Forstater judgment which makes it clear that women are most certainly allowed to hold the opinions he thinks we are not allowed to hold, and that discriminating against us for holding those opinions is against the law.

You could join the Free Speech Union op. Good luck!

Oh if he's junior to you then can't you just dob him in to his manager and say you think that a man who thinks he's entitled to dictate what women are allowed to think is literally the last person who should be in charge of organising an international women's day event, ask why he's been given this task, and tell them to put him firmly back in his box otherwise you'll take it to HR?

I would actually be very tempted to just reply all to the email he's sent you, copying in his manager, and say, "I think your tone is highly inappropriate and you should apologise and reflect on your actions. I'm not sure why a man who thinks he's entitled to dictate what women are allowed to think has been put in charge of organising this event and hope the same mistake won't be repeated next year."

His manager knows and is aware. He told his manager I hurt his feelings...

Remember - the vast, and I mean vast majority of the UK, let alone the world, very much agrees with your views

it is arrogant know it all virtue signallers, who think the world aligns with them. It does not.

do this....

And what has his manager told him about the impact his behaviour has had on you?

Why isn't his manager just telling him to wind his bloody neck in rather than passing on the message that you've hurt his feelings? FFS working where you do must feel like being back at primary school.

Oh nooooo not hurt feelings!!! Quick quick everyone , soothe the poor man’s hurty feels. I hope his manager told him to grow up

im so sorry OP, you must feel like you’re back at school

Thinking some more about this (and the primary school vibe), is his manager perhaps under the impression that this is equivalent to a spat between two ten year olds who need to be told to shake hands and make up so they can be friends again?

If so, perhaps they could benefit from a gentle reminder that this isn't a falling out between two children who have been mean to each other, and so you don't understand why they are passing on the message about his "hurt feelings" rather than dealing with the actual problem. Namely the fact that their direct report has been rude and discriminatory towards someone who is senior to them, in the context of him making what appears to be an absolute dog's breakfast of a job which should never have been entrusted to him in the first place because he is not a woman, doesn't understand the first thing about women, doesn't think women should have freedom of thought or expression, and isn't up to speed on equality law.

So what are they, as his manager, proposing to do about it?

You suggest that an apology from him should be the bare minimum, but that they should also think seriously about taking him off this task and giving it to someone vaguely competent.

And he can shove his hurt feelings up his arse, because making defamatory statements about a colleague (as he has done) is a lot more serious than hurting someone's feelings.

Their manager basically wants me to speak to him, have a chat and it will all be fine.

I'm not happy speaking to them on my own as I don't trust that there won't be further allegations.

I quite agree OP

his manager is obviously spineless and wants you to do the “there there mummy will make it better by saying sorry” crap that women get told to do

no

He’s chosen to make a fuss by going to his manager so he reaps what that involves ie all meetings to discuss this will now have to be with a third party present and recorded.

Basically your manager has done what Samdy Peggie’s did.
no way should you speak to him alone.

I'd be giving that short shift.

"Sandy, I'm happy to speak to Marcus if the purpose of the conversation is for him to apologise for his inappropriate behaviour. Assuming that's not the plan, I'd like you to actually manage him. Because his behaviour is completely unacceptable. Whose idea was it for him to organise this event anyway? Because he's clearly a liability who risks exposing this organisation to serious reputational damage. I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of the person having to explain why no competent woman was available to do this job so this clown ended up doing it."

You are protected by Forstater. But as you didn't even express your views this is ridiculous. No one has the right not to be offended and his manager should have told him that.

Do not speak to him on your own. He will twist what you say because he has already done so. The manager or HR should be present.