How do abusive men network/ find each other?

[TERFspice]

So much abuse of women and children centers on men secretly networking with each other/ protecting each other.

For example, the grooming gangs, Gisele Pelicot, and even scandals like Jimmy Saville involved hundreds, if not thousands, of men working together to abuse women and children.

My question is, how do they find each other in the first place?!? How do they test that a man isn't abusive/ will blow the whistle before sharing info with him?

I'm genuinely interested as I, to my knowledge, have no abusive people in my life so wouldn't even know where to begin!

How do they test that a man isn't abusive/ will blow the whistle before sharing info with him?

I've wondered about this so many times. Wasn't there a news story about a young woman who was raped in a hotel room? The rapists knocked on doors in the hotel and invited other men to rape her. Some declined but not one of them thought to report what was happening to the hotel management or Police.

It's almost as if the 'boys will be boys' cultural understanding leads to unswerving loyalty or the default minimum of never interfering with another man's business, no matter how abhorrent.

I'd guess it's looking after their own.

Comrades an all that.

Add in that women are support humans and worth less than the shit on your shoe.

I've never forgotten the story of Denise Amber Lee.

Her killer enlisted help from a (male) friend and (male) cousin (separate incidents). The cousin even saw the taped up, screaming woman trying to escape from the back of the killer's car. Gave him the tarpaulin, spade, and other items that he requested.

The men just didn't want to get involved.

There is more to it but I can't bear thinking of that brave young woman who fought so hard for her life. In response to the many mishandlings of her attempts to save her own life, the training of 911 operators was changed substantially.

I can't remember the details but I think it was in the UK that a woman was raped, ran away and a man rescued her, only to assault her in his car. Not that long ago.

I know, 100%, that my dp would not have done anything like this, and neither would my brother or a lot of other men I know. I can't really get my head round the number of men who would.

Quite bloody easily, I should think. Men don;t blow the whistle, even when they are policemen, as we saw with the Met and Wayne Couzens.

Our DPs and DHs and DSs are less than irrelevant here, can we stop talking about them.

Oh wow. Some shocking examples of bystanders on this thread. I guess I'm not thinking so much of them, but I do agree that such people need to be held more accountable.

Speaking of which, I do recall that when the Jimmy Saville scandal broke, there was a lot of "where were the feminists?" rhetoric. I didn't see the same people criticizing the men who knew about it. Basically, men can get away with being bystanders; women can't.

I think they identify fellow abusers through “jokes”. They say something slightly offensive to test the reaction of the other men. If they get called out on it, “it was just a joke”. If they don’t get called out on it, they escalate to see how far they can take it or get the other men to join in on the escalation. Now they know who might be allies in their abuse.

this is why it’s so important that “good men” don’t just ignore bad behaviour from other men but actively call them out on it. Of course, they don’t because they don’t want to be uncool or unmanly.

@Beebsta got in one

I have often wondered this too, these really horrendous crimes, how do you first broach it with anyone. I suppose internet now means you can seek out like minded people without even identifying yourself at least initially but it's not just that. I think part of it must be that so many of them really are so awful that it feels like a safe bet. And what @Beebsta said. What a world.

Beebsta is right. Then at a later stage they might use an initiation, which is something that breaks a boundary rather than a law, and the group then has a threat to hold over the head of anyone who breaks rank.
After that the behaviours escalate, and at that point its difficult for any of them to blow the whistle because they are also involved.

There's so much denial around and most people don't want to see what's in front of them. I had a teacher in my last school that refused to believe that one of the father's was abusive - even when the mother turned up with a black eye. This is someone that's a really nice person but has just had a very sheltered life.

For all the women on here that think they don't know anyone who's abusive - trust me, you do.

I suspect that, unfortunately, the men who declined were more worried about what might happen to THEM if they reported the creeps than what would happen to the woman.

Are you so sure? How many of the wives, partners or girlfriends of the men who raped Giselle Pelicot thought the same about their men?

You have misunderstood me. I meant there is no point in every poster saying how lovely their partners or sons are, as often happens on MN, because no doubt every woman in the history of the world has thought the same. Individiual men are irrelevant. The problem is global male violence.

I complained about a dinosaur making sexist, homophobic, racist comments during meetings,it was mostly the sexist shit that pissed me off for two reasons there was a lone female on those meetings and secondly he wouldn't have dared talk like that Infront of his own wife.
I was told sally doesn't seem bothered bit.
I told line manager it was offensive regardless and it should stop.
Half arsed attempt by manager and then it was a case of you know what he's like.🤯

Banter. Banter is how they find them. Read every court case involving groups properly, the evidence usually lists attempts through banter with other men which were unsuccessful.

From banter it escalates until they know they’re one of them. Don’t worry, in the gangs (cough police cough), you’re blackmailed to continue engaging or not to say anything if you try to leave.

Where I work, I can reasonably deduce who has tendencies based on their ‘jokes’ and ‘banter’. A lot of other men seem to. Surprisingly women get involved too. What starts off as casual sexism, racism etc. it all leads down the same road.

I've often wondered this. I'm old now but was in my 20's and 30's before the internet existed and used to wonder how paedophiles managed to identify other paedophiles and work together.

Obviously, with the internet and the dark web its easy. Men should be banned from the internet all they seem to use it for is for porn of some sort.

In the days before the internet I think it would have involved getting a job with access to children or volunteering, scouts etc.
Now probably msg boards websites etc.

This thread is a bit skin-crawling but I'm including it because of some of the techniques described here (e.g., infiltrating appreciation groups etc.).

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4754259-caba-baba-rave-take-your-baby-to-watch-nearly-naked-men-in-fetish-gear?page=9&reply=124416482

A little upthread from the response I've linked is an uncomfortable discussion of Shirley Temple from Graham Greene about the feelings her "dimpled depravity" arouse in some audiences and the sexualisation of her image (framed by the directors etc. or perception of the audience?).

Graham Greene tangent: https://www.academia.edu/4081248/ReconstructingShirleyPedophiliaandInterracialRomanceinHollywoodsAgeofInnocence

There may be something to be understood about attending "progressive" events like the rave and then boundary testing/banter in conversation with others as PPs describe? Or, on the internet, do people discover eachother in comments/discussions about videos?

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how men talk to each other when women aren't around - even your Nigel. Easy to see how that can escalate for the not so nice ones.

Exactly - locker room talk. They don't do it in front of us because they know how bad it is.

I find it all really depressing. I don't think it will ever change either sadly.

this is why it’s so important that “good men” don’t just ignore bad behaviour from other men but actively call them out on it.

Daniel Sloss was interesting on that (it seems impossible to find a video of the full clip now).

Deep down, I know most men are good, but when one in ten men are sh!! and the other nine do nothing, they might as well not f!!!ing be there. "Instead of having this f!!!ing hero complex and being, like, "I'm going to beat up a rapist, stop one, because I know it can be done, because I know how I f!!!ing failed at it.
Were there signs in my friend's behaviour towards women that I ignored? Yes. And then he raped my friend. That's on me until the day I die.
Talk to your f!!!ing boys. Get involved.
//http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/entertainment/celebrity/scots-comedian-daniel-sloss-shares-23688472

Good comment quoted from shrodingersbiscuit in this thread and that aligns to above discussion:

“It's a pyramid effect. It's not a spectrum, with jokes at one end and rape and murder at the other, it's a human pyramid where minor acts support the major acts. It provides, at best, a foundation of blithe indifference, and at worst amusement at the denigration of women.
The foundation of the pyramid is innumerable silent men: those who stand idly by as sexism and misogyny play out, because they aren't like that. Their silence might be due to ignorance, intimidation or indifference, but its impact is always the same—silence is complicity, and it creates a stable base for other men to stand on without fear of retribution.
Next level is apologists - there are several species, male and female, many of whom are predatory themselves, but they all protect the interests of abusive men via systematic minimisation of their crimes. They're the type who say our collective consciousness around sexual predation is a ‘witch hunt’. Some are overt - bullying is ‘banter’, bragging about sexual assault is ‘locker room talk’, raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster is ‘20 minutes of action’. Some are a bit more benign, like the ones who say, ‘sorry about my mate, he’s had too much to drink’. Unless they’re taking the time to have an uncomfortable chat with their friend about their behaviour, they're pointless.
Then we have the powerful. They’re the ones who quash victims’ allegations saying shit like ‘think carefully about pursuing this’. Who ask victims what they were wearing, and pillory them in the media sending the message that other victims won't be believed. They protect their abusive friends and colleagues from retribution for their actions, because their actions don't impact them.
And finally, at the peak of the pyramid, we have the predators. Flashers, gropers, murderers, abusers, rapists. They stand at the top, confident in their actions because of the complicit foundation those below provide.
What's being said is if we remove the base of a pyramid, it falls down. If men (who are the ones respected by those at the top of the pyramid) call out the everyday microaggressions against women the scum at the top can't/won't act as often, and hopefully, eventually, not at all. If your son/husband/boyfriend/cousin/whatever isn't actively calling out sexism and misogyny in his every day life then he is part of the silent base of the pyramid. And that, is the problem.“

Daniel Sloss: Everyday, Women Are Trying Their Hardest To Not Get Raped
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4189208-Daniel-Sloss-Everyday-Women-Are-Trying-Their-Hardest-To-Not-Get-Raped?reply=105497689&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Having just watched a 2 part documentary about 'The Eunuch Maker' Marius Gustavson (highly disturbing) he used the internet mainly. Although his physical crimes were not aimed at children he was found with a lot of the most serious CSA images.
He blackmailed some men into keeping quiet because he had made them complicit.

Sick peadophiles find each other as easy as flys round a freshly laid turd.

Some men don't need much encouragement. Look at the survey where men were asked if they would have sex with an underage girl for example.

They way men talk about women collectively (when no woman they are related to are around) can be vile.
We shouldn't be surprised similar conversations are being had but maybe not in Weatherspoons on Friday night, but maybe on a lap top or in an office at home. Or in a man shed near you...