Friend wants top surgery

[Jigglypufff]

One of my closest friends is saying they are non binary and has changed their name. I have gone along the route of not making it a big deal, like "ah that's nice pal, which film shall we go to see this weekend."
I don't know if this is the right tactic. I have been vocal about the fact that I don't understand why we would be boxing gender into stereo types- ie. Makeup and high heels does not a woman make. You can wear masculine looking clothes and still be a woman. Etc.

They now are saving for top surgery. Should I just keep with my current tactic? Im worried about side effects? They aren't on any hormones.

I just feel a bit like it's getting away from them, the name change etc has been very quick after announcing they are non binary.

I'm also a bit sad if I have the right to feel that.

Yes, limited range of arm movement can be a result of mastectomy.

And from what I understand, can be a progressive side effect of double mastectomies. One that progresses over the years.

I wonder if anyone who is considering getting a double mastectomy ever asks someone who has had one decades ago who will be blunt and honest about the negative aspects.

Remembering all those detransitioners and transitioners who tell us that any discussion about the negative side effects should not be discussed leaving those who need advice isolated with their pain, and those seeking the bare facts without the ability to access accurate information.

IMO hating your breasts so much you want to remove them isn't dysphoria it's dysmorphia - and I think it's really sad. We wouldn't cut healthy body parts off anyone with any other dysmorphia so I really don't understand how this is legal. I think it's horrifying that this is allowed to go on.

Obviously I'm coming at this from a completely different place but I was busty albeit a large cup on a small frame - 28f. I had a very complicated relationship with my breasts. Although I knew aesthetically, they were perfect -- shape, size, nipple, nipple placement, pertness, etc etc, but for me, they spoilt the line of clothes. They also made me visible in a way I did not feel comfortable with. I hated men talking to them, and objectifying me for them. I know a lot of the men I have dated have dated me because of my physicality.

Now I have no breasts, I honestly can't imagine a man finding me physically attractive. (Most) men are hugely visual. (Many) men are terrible when women get sick, particularly if it's cancer). It's not even that I don't have breasts, it's that I have two huge scars on my chest that very much are a constant reminder that I had cancer and could get it again. However, this is a whole other point.

Prior to my first mastectomy, I did go see an older friend who had breast cancer and a double mastectomy twenty years or so ago. I did not like the reconstruction work she had, and that did make me decision to not have a reconstruction even more certain. She also confided that if she could go back and do things differently, she would have remained totally flat. (I most declined a reconstruction because the surgeon couldn't replace what I had. And let's not forget, there's no sensation anyway, so it's not even a breast, it's just a facsimile of one).

Post surgery, I have no sensation and at times, I get phantom breast pain which drives me crazy. I also get an itch that no matter how hard I scratch, I can't get to it because it doesn't exist. Again, it's phantom pain. I have limited movement in my arms and my chest aches a lot. As someone who always slept on their stomach, I can't do this now due to lack of (breast) padding. A cushion just isn't the same. I also can no longer sleep on my right because it's too bony. Again, lack of breast padding.

Thank you for sharing .

I hope though that you didn't feel the need to share because of our posts. And that you know that you are obviously not alone.

It's incredibly cathartic sharing, I hope it's not minded that I'm derailing the thread in this way.

Tbh, I had a lot of conversations about all this as it throws up untold emotions, and I was someone who was very confident in one's body and self. I can only imagine what someone who loathes their body must go through. It must be hell, more so if their only option is to remove perfectly healthy breasts. This is why I'm so appalled by the way anyone with the money can mutilate themselves. At a minimum, anyone who wants 'top surgery' should have counselling for at least 12 months at the very least.

The sooner non-binary dies, the better. I can't help but feel that where once some women coped with their changing bodies/abuse with starving themselves, denouncing their femininity and saying they're non-binary is the latest incarnation of this. It's a form of self-hatred. It must be.

Anyway, that's it from me. An interesting conversation. Thank you all 💕

Plenty of women with two functional boobs have this "trauma", to be fair.

I'd feel much the same if one of my female friends announced they were getting a boob job in order to look / feel / be perceived a certain way - I'd be sad for them that they didn't feel happy in the healthy natural body they were born with and I might say that I wish they weren't taking such a risk with their health. But ultimately I'd agree they are an adult and capable of making decisions about their own body that I don't agree with. My friendship with them would trump that decision.

The sooner non-binary dies, the better. I can't help but feel that where once some women coped with their changing bodies/abuse with starving themselves, denouncing their femininity and saying they're non-binary is the latest incarnation of this. It's a form of self-hatred. It must be.

More or less all advertising is designed to make us feel insecure so that we buy whatever they're selling - their jars of hope. This movement, for want of a better word, is no different, apart from the fact that those who benefit from it are spread far and wide and the ways in which they benefit is obviously not always just financial.

From what I have read about detransitioners a lot of therapy seems to be harmful rather than helpful because it pushes them down the gender ideology path as a solution rather than dealing with underlying issues. I would check with your friend if non binary & mastectomy was her idea or the therapists. I'd also get her to do some research into detransitioners who regret their mastectomies. She may not want to hear it but as a friend I would have to say it once, and then leave her choices up to her.

Never get over? Trauma?

She bottle fed her baby, it's not traumatic ffs.

I think the trauma is more from cutting off healthy body parts and regretting it.

Yes, but I suspect that the trauma caused by being in that situation because you were daft and had your healthy breasts cut off is in another category. There's no one to blame but yourself.

@doublec - oh the itchy non boob! Argh
I had a bilateral mastectomy 10 years ago, at the age of 36, for cancer, and I also did not have reconstruction but chose to 'go flat'.

I had cancer in both breasts but also had the BRCA gene so didn't have the fight for removal others did.
My sister sought prophylactic mastectomy as she also had the gene, but was refused for psychological reasons, so people doing it through choice does upset me a bit.

Despite religiously doing my physio, I don't have quite the full range of movement in my arms and if I have to stretch them above my head for any length of time, it gets painful.

The skin on my chest is still numb. Except when it's itchy!

I have to be quite careful in my choice of clothes - it's not just removing the breast, they remove all the breast tissue so the chest left is quite concave.

There's a difference in women who are unable to breastfeed due to natural factors and these women who have made a voluntary decision to remove perfectly healthy body parts.

Breastfeeding trauma is real, and objectively makes a hell of a lot more sense than feeling upset when people use bog standard English pronouns when talking about someone in the third person, which we're constantly told is 'unkind'. (even though IMO sex deception pronouns are anti-safeguarding)

Funny how some people think they can dictate reality.

For anyone who wants to read more about breastfeeding grief / trauma Professor Amy Brown's book is a great source of information Breastfeeding Grief | Professor Amy Brown

My Mum had breastfeeding grief which she never really got over. She wasn't expecting it, everyone just forced her to use formula even when she didn't want to. She was minimised and dismissed and she said that's when she became a feminist.

The misogyny of trying to compel speech over pronouns because (let's face it mostly male) people might be sad if other people use normal English when they're not there, but denying the reality of breastfeeding grief (presumably because it can only affect women) is off the fucking charts.

Trauma around birth, the postnatal period, and breastfeeding is very real and very common. Often stays resonant for a lifetime, too. Elderly ladies sometimes still need to tell their birth stories.

I’m shocked that your sister was denied the surgery!

I have to disagree that it's 'off the fucking charts'.

Your child dying would be trauma and off the fucking charts.

There are many more serious things that would cause trauma, bottle feeding a child isn't the end of the world.

However i can see that being forced to do something you don't want to do with your baby must be gut wrenching.

I'm sorry your mother was forced into a position that caused her so much pain.

It's not the bottle feeding that's traumatic, it's the struggle to try and feed your baby in a way that your hormones, body and instincts are urging you to do, and not managing.

We're mammals - breastfeeding your baby is a very strong drive, and being prevented from doing so can be painful (physically as well as emotionally and mentally).

This experience happens in the postnatal first days, when women are especially vulnerable and often trying to recover from birth trauma and bond with their baby.

As a breast cancer patient 5 years ago I find voluntary mutilation so abhorrent it's hard to describe.

One thing they don't tell you before surgery for cancer (so even less likely for ideology) is that you will likely have some degree of pain in the surgery area forever.

As a pp said that's just one more thing to add into the mix as you age.

You're in a very difficult position, OP. Your friend is lucky to have a friend who is going to so much trouble and deep thought to find the best way to help her.
I've read all the posts, and there is so much pain and trauma in some of them, I want to send love and to all who have had such awful experiences, which they did not choose.

What to say to your friend, OP? I don't know. One thing I've learnt about dealing with really really complex and emotionally charged situations is: keep it simple. There are no magic words you can find to make your friend feel so much better about herself that she will no longer want to take this drastic step.

I'd stick to something along the lines of - I understand that this feels like the best solution for you right now, but it's surgery, dammit, and that's always an ordeal and leaves after-effects you'll have to live with forever. Have you read about it in detail and accepted what having a double mastectomy is really really like for women who've had it done to them? No more breasts, but lots of potential problems? It worries me when I think about you having those kind of after-effects..

And I'd leave it at that and be the best friend you feel you can continue to be - it will be difficult for you to watch your friend going through the operation and the potential after-effects, and your well-being in this friendship matters too.

So if it gets very difficult for you to be supportive because you have such a bad feeling about what your friend is doing, I think you're entitled to withdraw from her to a level you can deal with emotionally - still as supportive as you can be, but I don't think it would be wrong for you to choose not to be there 100% for something you feel is bad for a friend who you obviously care about.

@MarieDeGournay

Thank you for your kind words.

There is no chance of me pulling away from the friendship. We are really close.

Thank you for all the input so far from different perspectives.

The coining of 'top surgery' to minimise a double mastectomy is probably one of the worst travesties. To minimise highly invasive, painful surgery down to a twee phrase. It's disgusting. They are an adult, they can do what they want. But I'd make sure they have looked into exactly what a double mastectomy is and the recovery time before committing to it.

That's OK Jigglypufff, take care of yourself as well as your friend