Friend wants top surgery

[Jigglypufff]

One of my closest friends is saying they are non binary and has changed their name. I have gone along the route of not making it a big deal, like "ah that's nice pal, which film shall we go to see this weekend."
I don't know if this is the right tactic. I have been vocal about the fact that I don't understand why we would be boxing gender into stereo types- ie. Makeup and high heels does not a woman make. You can wear masculine looking clothes and still be a woman. Etc.

They now are saving for top surgery. Should I just keep with my current tactic? Im worried about side effects? They aren't on any hormones.

I just feel a bit like it's getting away from them, the name change etc has been very quick after announcing they are non binary.

I'm also a bit sad if I have the right to feel that.

Right so non binary can't be explained in anything other than completely individual terms. But said individual must be referred to by plural pronouns. And even if they aren't even androgynous, and they acknowledge that they look female, they'll still claim non-binariness for "comfort".

^^ I'm sorry I just cannot take grown adults seriously that behave like this. Non-binary means fuck all, it's a personality, because human beings are a mammalian species. If you don't feel like one or the other - congratulations that's everyone because no one has the experience of "feeling" like something they're not.

OP I think you think you're being kind, indulging your friend, and maybe you are and I'm just a stone-cold bastard. But I would pull away from a friend like this, and encourage them to have some therapy. Fine to not like your tits or whatever, but no you're not coercing me into using different pronouns for you, or referring to you by make-believe terms.

I really do feel that there is an aspect of narcissism to gender identity that people don’t like to acknowledge. And it is there even if someone says that they don’t
force pronoun use.

Because it is there in the anticipation that others will defy the conventions of established language to communicate to them and about them. Because whenever a person has to refer to the person with that identity, a person has to think specifically about how to communicate about them. They cannot use the intuitive language reactions they have developed since they learned to talk.

And why? On one hand it seems that the person seeks to nullify themselves, to attempt to remove the sex distinction that they can never remove. Yet in doing so, they increase the attention to that sex distinction by constantly drawing attention to it. And because then society is making all sorts of special considerations for them, even while they might not be the activist type who is making demands in work places, in health care, in media etc.

When you consider it, so much energy being expelled on this group of individual’s collectively. It is individualism.

And from what I can see, from a female perspective it seems to be female people removing themselves (even if only in their own mind) from being seen as female for potentially a slew of different reasons to those of male people. And male non-binary people aren’t removing healthy body tissue to be more comfortable in the world in anywhere the same level of numbers of surgeries sought. So even in the medicalisation of these identities, the outcome is asymmetrical for female people.

You'll get polarised views in this forum OP.
At the end of the day, your friend is a grown up and able to make their own decisions. I think you can rightly ask if they've considered risks of major surgery but ultimately all you can do is accept /support or end the friendship.
It sounds like you're pretty accepting of their state so far so I'd just maybe raise an eyebrow when you next discuss and say wow that's a major op are you not worrying about risks? If they say yes have considered and totally worth it then leave at that.

Listening to and analysing ‘polarised’ views is how people gain understanding about topics, isn’t it? Isn’t that why people post on discussion forums to get those polarised views so they see if they have missed information or not considered aspects of the topic that others have?

I would have to say somethng to any friend considering major surgery, for non medical reasons. Cosmetic surgery has been normalised in our society, that doesn't mean that its a safe or sensible option, and I think the doctors involved are a disgrace to their profession.

For whatever reason many in our society are increasingly obsessed with appearance. I'd have to tell her to stop spending so much time thinking about herself and her body, and go and do something useful instead.

Sorry I should have been clearer. These kinds of threads tend to be dominated by one side of the debate which means that it's hard to get the balanced view and both sides of the debate and OP can be left without any answers to the question which was "should I say anything to my friend" and not "is non binary a thing"

I agree with this.

The women here understand the issues better than vast swathes of the population.

The OP has come to a highly suitable place to get opinions from women who are extremely well informed, and in many cases well qualified - eg on issues of women’s rights and safeguarding.

Is it a balanced friendship? By that I mean, are they as interested in and supportive of things happening in your life? Do they ask you about you?

I was hoping to get perspective from both sides. So the thread has helped with that. I probably will push a bit with the surgery update, the risks etc and will use the correct terms rather than "top surgery". My friend is really lovely and supportive to me. I wouldn't be without them.

And yet, there is a non-binary person also posting on this thread and there have been a wide range of opinions expressed.

Ive not got a clue about the ins and outs of terminology but it's normal for people to call medical things by other names eg slipped disc is not a slipped disc at all but a herniated disc.
Just if you value your friendship and that term is something they use then I'd probably not over labour the correct medical term point if I were you. Just a thought. I have zero skin in this game but if i kept correcting my mum when she says slipped disc she'd get annoyed with me !

TBF, I was fairly adamant that I didn't want kids at 29. Now impatiently pregnant with my first at 35.

But I guess you don't live life based on potential regrets.

Double mastectomies are very major surgeries. In fact, all surgeries related to modifying a person’s body to fit their personal perception of themselves are major surgeries.

The use of minimising language is part of the harm.

I'd approach it in the same way as if a friend wanted to remove a leg because of BIID, only with the awareness that breasts are fetishised, and often the locus for anxiety for women that reflects that fetishisation in the context of rape culture and porn culture.

Also, there is a movement and ideology that is normalising this dysphoria and presenting breast removal as laudable bravery, so there is some social validation involved.

In other words, I'd approach with sensitivity and compassion but curiosity as to why she wants to have her breasts removed and what she thinks this drastic surgery will achieve.

Your friend is free to have plastic surgery as she wishes, of course. Generally I think it seems shallow, but sometimes it's more a form and expression of self harm. It's validated and propped up by a huge and lucrative industry that profits from women's insecurities.

Your friend is already lost to the cult of gender ideology.

Having known a fair amount of women who've had breasts removed, I agree with the minimisation of this procedure being a concern.

Personally, I think it's a bizarre and deeply unhealthy choice. But she's an adult and even if she later regrets the decision it's not the end of the world - just another self-inflicted problem to overcome. 🤷

"is non binary a thing" is the whole point though. The OP's friend is only having this surgery because she thinks she's non-binary. Only a few years ago, before the concept of non-binary was invented, nobody would be having this discussion. A young woman who wanted a double mastectomy for non medical reasons would be referred for psychiatric help, not for surgery.

In a few years' time I expect this weird idea of not having a sex to be looked back on as an odd craze of the early 21st century, and teenage girls and young women will find yet another way to be "not like other girls".

“the awareness that breasts are fetishised, and often the locus for anxiety for women that reflects that fetishisation in the context of rape culture and porn culture”

”Also, there is a movement and ideology that is normalising this dysphoria and presenting breast removal as laudable bravery, so there is some social validation involved.”

These points cannot be discussed enough.

Rather than addressing the societal issues that have caused so much distress in female people, groups have sought to make the response to the societal issues better availability of extreme body modifications. It is like being told the antidote to counter the increase in pressure to have a body that fits a pornified expectation is to remove those body parts altogether. Rather than fixing the societal problem, female people are having to find other ways to deal with this issue.

I think you could express concern about the surgery by offering to support them afterwards. Ask how long they will be in for, do they need a lift home/will they be able to drive soon afterwards, would it help to have some ready meals in the freezer etc.

In a past job I worked a lot with post-surgical complications of various types so I am furiously angry at the normalisation of any type of surgery. I find it chilling that anyone feels their body is 'right' only after major surgery, as a pp said. But again, this is your friend.

Yes. And it is the impact of the scar tissue later in life that is usually dismissed too.

Women are more vulnerable to post surgical complications of certain types due to physical factors such as the narrower female airway.

Thanks for answering @nbartist I still have questions but I don't want to derail the OP's thread further.

Arguably the surgery is just a visible manifestation of deeper issues. And part of the problem is that promotion of breast removal as a solution may mean those issues remain unaddressed.