Australian Family Court Allows Cross Sex Hormones for Teen

[NotYourCisterinAus]

https://archive.is/y7tNF

Excuse me while I bang my head against the wall in frustration.

? I lived there

It’s interesting how differently we all view the same information.

We know it’s impossible to change sex. However, with hormones and surgery we can change our physical appearance just look at the plastic surgery instagrammer’s have.

We know not all trans people take hormones or have surgery.

There are views on whether or not gender dysphoria is real, a mental health condition etc.

We know that Freddy McConnell at the age of 27 had a double mastectomy which they deeply regretted when they chose to become a mother and couldn’t breastfeed.

One aspect a judge will be looking for is, if Ash at 16, really understands what they are requesting and understands the impacts both positive (from Ash’s perspective) and negative.

From the article it appears Ash understands:

• they are not changing sex, and will still have a female reproductive system.
• cross sex hormones may render them sterile. Along with other complications.
• they might want children
• one solution is egg donation (but not from their sister)

At 16 Ash appears to have a better understanding of reality than 27 year old Freddie.

Unlike most, if not all of us on this thread I have not spoken to Ash nor read all the evidence. The judge has.

@Sasskitty

? I lived there

? I live there.

It’s interesting how differently we all view the same information.
We know it’s impossible to change sex. However, with hormones and surgery we can change our physical appearance just look at the plastic surgery instagrammer’s have.

It's interesting how you seem to think that it could be appropriate for a 16-year-old child to have this sort of extreme cosmetic surgery. I'm assuming you think it's appropriate, because otherwise why mention it on a thread about a child?

At 16 Ash appears to have a better understanding of reality than 27 year old Freddie.

Why does Ash want to be a boy (which she obviously can't be)? Why does she think that going through life as an infertile woman pretending to be a man will be better or easier than being a (probably) fertile woman?

This doesn't seem to me to be based on a very firm understanding of reality.

@Harassedevictee

Unlike most, if not all of us on this thread I have not spoken to Ash nor read all the evidence. The judge has.

The judge was clear about what Ash did and did not understand. What the judge and we disagree on is not anything specific to Ash that the judge knows and we don't. It's whether that level of understanding in a 16 year old is sufficient to make that decision (or set of decisions) and then be expected to live with consequences of getting it wrong. The judge thinks yes. We think no.

At 16 Ash appears to have a better understanding of reality than 27 year old Freddie.

16 year olds change fast. 16 year olds can't visualise themselves as older people with very different priorities from ones they have now. They think short term. They make decisions now and assume later consequences will take care of themselves or that they will manage somehow but with only the haziest and least realistic ideas of how. The judge cannot have determined that Ash is the exception because there is no way for the judge (or anyone) to know that, there is no special secret information or insight.

A 16 year old may know all the facts that you stated but cannot visualise the impact of those facts in future on Ash's body, mind and relationships. Ash's suggestion that their sister might donate eggs only demonstrates how little Ash truly understands about adult bodies, adult emotions and adult relationships.

It's not possible to predict what they a 16 year old will want even in a few years' time. There is no way to predict whether a 16 year old will want to breast feed in their twenties or thirties. All you can know for sure is that they are more likely to change their mind about it than a 30 year old - but even a 30 year old can change their mind. You can choose not to breast feed, or to stop breast feeding if you hate it, but you can't grow new breasts.

The most common direction of travel with age is from "not wanting children" to "wanting children" and usually towards "wanting my own children". The other way round is much rarer. Ash already wants to have children at some point, or that conversation with Ash's sister would not have happened. Sterilising a healthy youngster who wants (or knows they might want might want) to have children later on is not ethical.

Children have - or should have - a right to an open future. Not to have to live with decisions whose full effects they couldn't be expected to conceptualise. Waiting even a couple of years to formal adulthood makes it just that bit safer.

I don't know enough about Australia to know if this judge is an extremist or has typical views for typical for the area they live in. Or something in between.

Hi, ok!

I was ref your ‘don’t listen to everything you see in the media’ comment.

You were implying I had been influenced by the media. I was correcting your implication.

I think it’s a fabulous country in many ways (outdoor life, healthy good food easily accessible, good health care etc). Certainly a physically healthier place to live than the uk.

At the same time - it’s racist, sexist and doesn’t give a fck about women’s rights. Also feels isolated, and lacking in culture but that’s a different discussion.

@Harassedevictee thanks for your response.
I'm still not clear exactly what the "cross sex" hormones are supposed to be treating.
If men can get pregnant (which is what all this discussion of egg donation is about - Ash as an adult seeking to get pregnant) then why can't boys have oestrogen / progesterone based puberties?
What is "cross sex" about testosterone for Ash? Ash is already a boy, and as a man Ash hopes to carry a pregnancy to term.
Is this an aesthetic / cosmetic choice on Ash's part?
In which case, the tolerance for harms caused by treatment are much lower. Infertility is not something a medic could knowingly risk in the provision of cosmetic treatments and expect to keep their registration.
The judge seems to be agreeing with Ash that a suite of treatments are needed to make Ash look and sound like a cis man. Neither Ash nor the judge think that having a desire to gestate and birth a child weaken Ash's claims to actually be male.
To repeat, if Ash the boy -> man can give birth why can't Ash the boy -> man have a non-testosterone based puberty?
I'm not trying to get my head around whether or not Ash is competent to make this decision.
I'm trying to get my head around what Ash, and the judge in this case, think the treatment Ash is seeking is all about.

@OldCrone you are so wrong about me.

I think anyone who has unnecessary surgery at any age has a negligent doctor.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I'd say the judge's views are typical for an Australian professional who is not socially conservative.
I had hoped Cass would provoke changes, but his attitude to it unfortunately is common.

27 year old Freddie only "understood reality" when actually giving birth, and when wanting to feed her child or when the child naturally rooted for the breast.

It is possible to 'understand' all sorts of things in a detached and intellectual way. Unfortunately doing irreparable damage to a healthy functioning body may well only occur to you when it no longer functions as it should or is showing signs of disease.

It is the responsibility of the adult to point this out. A 16 year old really doesn't appreciate the stark realities and consequences of many situations.

I was at an art exhibition on Saturday. I had an audio phone with some background on the pieces. Someone said the sentence ‘Some people look, but do not see’. I know that sounds quasi religious. However, I think it is very applicable in a situation like this.

A youngster may hear the words ‘you will be infertile, and never have your own children’. You cannot understand the reality of it though. Decisions made now that will remove choices years in the future. I had absolutely no desire to have children when I was a teenager, or even in my twenties. In fact, I may have said that I didn’t want that at all. Head, and life, full of getting on building a life. Getting on the property ladder - security. Then it dawned on me that I would rather like to become a mother, and have a baby.

It even sounds as if his response is rooted in the tendency to rebel against anything British, and even more so against anything commissioned under the Tories. And in that way his judgment is itself a political one.

As for breast feeding; I only gave it any thought when I attended my first Obstetrician consultation. WHO had a campaign, and the hospital were promoting its merits. I was asked had I though about breastfeeding the baby, and the advantages were outlined.

@Shortshriftandlethal

It even sounds as if his response is rooted in the tendency to rebel against anything British, and even more so against anything commissioned under the Tories. And in that way his judgment is itself a political one.

I'm sorry, but this is bizarre. Why would an Australian judge feel the need to do something like this?

@Sasskitty

I think it’s a fabulous country in many ways (outdoor life, healthy good food easily accessible, good health care etc). Certainly a physically healthier place to live than the uk.

At the same time - it’s racist, sexist and doesn’t give a fck about women’s rights. Also feels isolated, and lacking in culture but that’s a different discussion.

Well, that's rude. And wrong.

What about other unnecessary medical treatment?

This medical treatment is just about changing the appearance of the body. It's cosmetic. It has no medical value. In fact, all the effects, other than the cosmetic changes, are negative. And as is increasingly being shown from the experience of detransitioners, even the cosmetic changes can turn out to be negative in the longer term.

What is the point of this treatment other than the cosmetic aspects?

It is bizarre, isn't it? This is a girl who knows that she might want her body to be able to do the things women's bodies are able to (give birth), but she also wants her body to look like a man's body.

Surely the person who should be trying to unpick what's going on here and make decisions about whether any medical treatment is required is a psychiatrist, not a judge.

Why does Ash want to look like a man? Why does Ash want people to think she's a man?

Personally, I'm not convinced that any of this is based on anything other than regressive gender stereotypes.

https://www.genderclinicnews.com/p/not-in-our-name?utm_campaign=post&showWelcomeOnShare=true

Lane covers this case in his write-up under the sub-title ‘common sense’. Click on the hyperlink ‘published’ in this section as it takes you to the case.

@Shortshriftandlethal fair point.

The question is how do you determine if anyone of any age fully understands a situation they are facing and are capable of making an informed decision?

As you know I was making a statement in general terms and not about Ash.

If we step back and look at anyone receiving unnecessary medical treatment be it medicines or cosmetic surgery etc.

I don’t believe it is necessary for people to have Botox or fillers or veneers or face lifts or breast enlargements etc. purely for cosmetic reasons. It uses up valuable resources, that could be used to treat those who really need it, like Katie Piper. People die from cosmetic surgery.

Look at Katie Price, or Michael Jackson etc. what doctor is acting ethically in those cases? However, as adults they get to choose.

I respect the right for other people as adults to choose what is right for them even if I disagree. Which I do.

At 16 Ash is not quite old enough to make that decision. Which is why a judge, and I imagine a whole group of people, have been involved.

I would much rather have a judge looking at one person and making a decision than the Wild West we had previously with GIDS etc. Children much younger than Ash obtaining PB via online clinics etc.

You didn't answer my question @Harassedevictee

What do you think is the point of this treatment other than the cosmetic aspects? Is there any other point?

No it’s not. In general, it’s fairly straightforward for reasonably intelligent, well informed people to make decisions about medical treatment. I’ve made the decision to have a knee replaced, because I recognise that quite soon the benefits will outweigh the disadvantages. I have a good idea of the level of pain I will face, how it can be mitigated and roughly how long it will take to recover.
Similarly, my SIL has agreed to be treated for her cancer, as she knows the consequence of not being treated might fatally shorten her life. We are both adults and the situations and outcomes are well evidenced, familiar and easily comprehensible.
My great niece, in her teens, has opted to go on the contraceptive pill in order to regulate her periods. This was done after much careful thought and with a clear understanding of the benefits and risks, again which are well known.
In each of these and many other cases, deciding capability is relatively easy. However, the sorts of medications and procedures in gender medicine are experimental and unproven. Additionally, teenagers and young people suffering from the sorts of conditions and disabilities that might prompt them to want these treatments are often prevented by those conditions from developing a full understanding of the impact on their future lives.

@OldCrone sorry, Mental health.

@borntobequiet I agree that in general most people make informed decisions.

This includes people who go to turkey to get cosmetic surgery or bariatric surgery etc. and have consider the risks and decided it is right for them.

Sadly, the reality is you can’t go back and stop the original development of PB, cross sex hormones, surrogacy, womb transplants etc. How these medical development are then applied/used can be shocking and certainly not what was intended.

What you can do is put the right safeguards in place. I would far rather a multi-disciplinary team considered the whole person (child and adult) and ensured they were making a fully informed decision. Where appropriate, with a judge making the final decision.

The opposite is to force it underground and people get PB/cross sex hormones on the internet. With little to no medical supervision and a huge potential for getting it wrong.

One of the biggest failings in all of this is the lack of high quality data. Had proper longitudinal studies been done on PB/cross sex hormones Baroness Cass’ job would have been made much easier. Her report would have been even more compelling. Thankfully this data should now be being collected but it will take time.

You only have to look at the newish “miracle” weight loss injections. Developed for good reasons to help morbidly obese patients to reverse diabetes, liver issues etc. losing weight was just one of the benefits.

We now have adults (and I suspect children) who don’t need them finding ways to get round the rules to get prescriptions online. There are side effects some of which may be permanent. How do you control this?

I am pragmatic and whilst I would much rather children and vulnerable adults didn’t have the option of PB, cross sex hormones and potentially as adults surgery the reality is they do. My view it is how you manage access that is important.

Surrogacy is another one, an option in theory for altruistic purposes e.g. a family member carrying a child for a female relative born without a uterus. We can’t go back but OMG we need to get the legislation right.