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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC Radio 4 series this week about PIE: In Dark Corners

177 replies

ILikeDungs · 06/01/2025 17:57

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00272c6

Starts Wednesday 8th Jan. 9:30 a.m. R4

Journalist Alex Renton is shown a secret document, containing the names and addresses of people signed up to a pro-paedophile group called the Paedophile Information Exchange, or PIE, which was active in the 1970s and 80s.
That’s not all: weeks after getting the membership list Alex meets a contact who gives him bags full of documents, crammed with reports, contact details, letters.
As Alex starts following up on leads; detail of the criminal activities committed by some of PIE’s members, and those connected with them, begins to emerge.
It’s a lot to take in. Alex is not only a journalist, he’s a survivor of child sexual abuse. All of this information about PIE; it feels like a heavy weight to carry. Are children still at risk?

BBC Radio 4 - In Dark Corners, Series 2

Journalist Alex Renton investigates a mysterious membership list.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00272c6

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
DeanElderberry · 14/02/2025 12:21

How do the actions of an American president in the 21st century prove anything about the actions of an English feminist in the 1970s and 1980s? Different countries, different generations.

SuePine69 · 14/02/2025 15:16

Thelnebriati · 14/02/2025 12:20

Do feel free to start a new thread and bring as many red herrings as you like.

This thread is about PIE.

It's not me who is introducing red herrings. There are people on this thread who are determined to use the issue of paedophilia to promote their ideology. They are insistent that Radical Feminists in the 1970s and 1980s were in the vanguard of the fight against PIE. Their message is that people didn't listen to us then but they should do now.

One thing I have learned from this thread is that Mary Whitehouse was in the vanguard of the fight against PIE. You might even say she was alone in that. I give her credit for that even though I disagree with almost everything else that she said. I don't accept that claim for the Radical Feminists though.

If people want to challenge me on that point I am quite happy to go into it in detail. Don't accuse me of sidetracking this thread though when I am responding to criticism of what I have said.

SuePine69 · 14/02/2025 16:08

DeanElderberry · 14/02/2025 12:21

How do the actions of an American president in the 21st century prove anything about the actions of an English feminist in the 1970s and 1980s? Different countries, different generations.

Laura Lederer was an enabler of George Bush. I doubt if she learned her form of feminism from Sheila Jeffreys. Probably they both learned it from Catharine A MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin. A different type of feminist might have been a moderating influence on the policies of Bush.

DeanElderberry · 14/02/2025 16:36

PIE

English

1970s

PIE activity still influential in England (and Scotland and Northern Ireland) down to the present day.

USA - different continent, different society.

You could start a thread about NAMBLA if the USA is your central focus, people might find it interesting.

Thelnebriati · 14/02/2025 21:40

A different type of feminist might have been a moderating influence on the policies of Bush.

LOL! Feminists are responsible for not doing enough to control men's behaviour. First PIE, now the President.

Bosky · 15/02/2025 03:06

Related . . . no mention of previous US Presidents . . . but so many echoes right through the last 50 years to today.

Forgotten Children – the background to the children’s homes scandals
Christian Wolmar - 8 Oct 2000

Extracts: (my bolding)

In the 1970s and 1980s, an epidemic of abuse swept through Britain’s children’s homes. . . .

The scandals cover the breadth of the UK, from Aberdeen to North Wales, East Belfast to Plymouth; and while cases occur from the early 1960s into the 1990s, they predominate in the 1970s and 1980s. . . .

The reasons for this epidemic are many and debatable. But one possible cause that has received little attention – and that seems particularly relevant to the question of why the epidemic occurred when it did – is the general tenor of the period in question, especially where sexual politics was concerned.

THE ROLE and function of children’s homes changed dramatically between the mid 1960s and the early 1970s. As late as 1967, the service was very female dominated and most of the staff lived in the homes. The Williams committee, reporting on the staffing of residential homes that year, noted: “Two-thirds of people at present employed in residential homes are single women and one-third of all staff are over 50 years of age.” All but 7 per cent of workers in the survey lived on the premises, which provided an important but barely noticed safeguard for the children.

Many of these women had worked all their lives in the system. They were part of the cohort of war widows or those left unmarried by the shortage of men following the Second World War, who had found both employment and a home by taking up jobs in children’s homes. As they left, they were replaced largely by men – since the jobs were now full-time and, increasingly, non-resident.

“The 1970s saw… a deliberate move away from the traditional arrangement whereby children’s homes were in the hands of a husband and wife team as superintendent and matron, or officer in charge and deputy,” noted the Kirkwood report, which followed the gaoling of the notorious Leicestershire abuser, Frank Beck, in 1991. . . .

It was no coincidence that the few scandals that did emerge in the immediate post-war period were in approved schools, which were run by male-dominated authoritarian regimes. When, in the early 1970s, the approved schools were merged into the social services system and became community homes with education, this again increased the proportion of men in the homes. . . .

Women were excluded from this controlling inner circle. . . .

Among the incoming cohort of men, there is a very clear trend which leads to suspicions that many deliberately obtained these jobs in order to exploit children sexually. And, in contrast to the figures for society generally (where there are six times more cases of abuse against girls than against boys), the vast majority of these scandals relate to homosexual abuse of boys. . . .

The events in Islington represented a systemic failure of the whole social services department, which had had a good reputation until around 1982, when the newly elected Labour council decided to set up a revolutionary new structure of devolved management, with 24 neighbourhood offices. . . .

There was also experimentation with equal opportunities policies on a grand scale. . . .

With the normal checks no longer available to those making appointments, Islington became wide open for sexual predators to move in, and the lax procedures were systematically exploited by determined men seeking to use the children for their own ends. . .

Much of the abuse resulted from the fact that there was an overemphasis on recruiting people who called themselves gay but were in fact paedophiles. White concludes that positive discrimination allowed staff to exploit the children in their care for their own purposes. . .

THERE WAS ALSO a more insidious influence at work. The social work profession was forced to work out a way to respond to the new liberal mores of the 1960s and 1970s. The sexual revolution came in stages, each wave being initiated in the United States and quickly travelling over the Atlantic. These were heady and exciting times, and they undoubtedly changed society fundamentally for the better. But it was also a period of experimentation, and no one quite knew what the new boundaries were. Challenges were being made by a wide range of alternative groups to virtually every tenet of the post-war consensus: anti-war protesters, anti-apartheid campaigners, ban-the-bomb activists, gays, feminists and so on formed a huge rainbow coalition whose aims, beyond the negative of disliking the established capitalist order, were hazy and diffuse.

Encouraged by all these liberation movements, in October 1974 a group of paedophiles, who defined themselves as child lovers not necessarily interested in sex with children, formed the Paedophile Information Exchange to “provide the means for paedophiles to feel less isolated and gain a sense of community”. Their aim was also to “alleviate suffering of many adults and children” by campaigning against the laws on the age of consent, to allow adults to have sex with children. . . .

PIE suggested that, as homosexuals had become “gays”, paedophiles should be called “kind persons”. They realised that supporting the right of men to bugger children was unpalatable; but giving young people the right to express themselves sexually was a message that might have resonance in the newly liberated sexual climate.

Despite the preposterous nature of its ideas, PIE was for a while accepted among the rainbow coalition – the range of groups on the left which grew out of the 1960s liberation movements . . .

The National Council for Civil Liberties was targeted, and a fierce debate within the organisation ensued after PIE applied to become a member. Eventually, it was rejected at the organisation’s annual general meeting. PIE also attempted, for a while, to use the same mailing address as Release, the drugs charity. (I know this because I worked at Release at the time.) And the National Association of Probation Officers was approached as well.

A social worker who has worked for many years on cases involving paedophiles reckons that the attempt to merge gay and paedophile issues was a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters: “They did it to prepare their defence, so that when they were arrested or there was a complaint, they could cry homophobia. . . .”

PIE was backed by the nebulous Campaign Against Public Morals, which used the language of the left in an attempt to bring PIE into the fold of the rainbow coalition, attempting to portray them – at a time when Mary Whitehouse was at her peak – as an oppressed group. In 1981 it produced a pamphlet, Paedophilia and Public Morals, couched in Socialist Worker-speak with graphics to match; it was published just before the Old Bailey appearance of Tom O’Carroll, PIE’s chairman, . . .

The pamphlet characterised the prosecution as a “show trial” which the Thatcher government was going to exploit to its advantage: “The government and all other levels of state apparatus are likely to adapt to the press-created climate by launching an offensive against the gay community, against women and, most important, against children.” But it was all couched in “kids’ lib” terms: “We can be certain of a clamp-down on the autonomous activities of children inside the family in all spheres of life, and specifically of an attempt to smash any gay youth groups. And we can be certain of a concentrated effort to split the women’s movement on the question on which they have been historically the weakest: paedophilia and child sexuality. . . .

Combined with earlier setbacks, this spelt the end of PIE, which ceased functioning – whereupon its members (around 450 people had joined at one time or other) went back into the closet.

The importance of the PIE story is not that its members went out deliberately infiltrating children’s homes but that its lobbying, both overt and covert, helped to create a climate in which sex between adults and children became more acceptable. . . .

PIE had a fifth column. Right at the core of social work education, there was an influential apologist for paedophilia. . . .

PETER RIGHTON WORKED variously as a probation officer and as a teacher before becoming a lecturer in social work. In the mid-1970s, he became director of education at the National Institute of Social Work, and a consultant for the National Children’s Bureau. He also taught social services managers at the Open University, and he was widely regarded as an expert on residential care. . . .

As with PIE, it is not Righton’s direct role that is important to this story but the influence he was able to wield over the social work profession and society at large. . .

The fact that Righton could blatantly tout his opinions and retain his senior position demonstrates the confusion over matters sexual which existed in the world of social work. Concern over the rights of oppressed minorities unbalanced the whole profession. There is no other explanation for the failure to tackle Righton.

ULTIMATELY, PIE and the paedophiles were rejected and lost the debate. A review in Gay Times in August 1997 charted the history well: “Gay attitudes to paedophilia have undergone a transformation. In the early days of gay liberation, ‘intergenerational’ sex seemed to occupy a legitimate place on the homosexual continuum. Homosexuals were vilified and persecuted, and so were paedophiles. Denying child sexuality seemed part of the ideology of repression. But genuine anxiety about child sex abuse has hardened attitudes. Gay law reform is a serious business nowadays. We have spent decades trying to shrug off the charge that we just want to molest children. We can do without real perverts hitching a ride on the bandwagon, thank you.”

But the fact remains that the 1970s and early 1980s were confusing times for those who had been brought up in a world of certainties. One abuser, “Jim Clark”, describes with great feeling the way that these changes affected him: “Before the 1960s, life was easier to handle, everyone knew where they stood. You didn’t have to struggle with a conscience torn apart by free expression or grey areas; men and boys had short hair cuts, played men’s games, girls had dolls, sex was a taboo subject, at least in the circles I ever moved in. Then it seemed all of a sudden all the rules and guidelines were dismantled and lonely insecure people like me couldn’t handle this freedom. We may not have liked the austere 1940s and 1950s, but we knew where we stood. Decisions were made for us by unwritten cultures. In the 1960s, I didn’t know what to believe, even with religion, having been brought up as a strict Roman Catholic. Our elders were too shy to enlighten us or answer our questions. Temptations opened up to us with many people who surrounded us behaving as if this was acceptable. Behaviour previously considered unmanly was now OK. I remember listening to a discussion on masturbation – previously it was a great sin, you went blind. I believed this and then, all of a sudden, it was normal, natural, healthy even, as a doctor told me to do it when I had to see him over a painful groin. Hence my confusion and inability to cope mentally with changes.” . . .

Some people realised immediately that PIE was different from other liberation groups and not to be given any leeway. But all too many humble, demoralised care workers – in Islington, and in other places where the door was shut when sexual activity was discovered – were unable to make that distinction in an institutional ethos that left them unsure about the boundaries they were supposed to patrol. . . .

The fact that so many like-minded abusers did manage to infiltrate so many homes in such a systemic, if not systematic, way must therefore remain, in part, a mystery. But in large part it can be explained by the reasons given above: by failures of management and ideology that prevented those whose responsibility it was to protect their charges from abusers from doing so effectively.

Paedophile rings do exist, but the abuse epidemic in Britain’s children’s homes in the 1970s and 1980s is not about rings. Rather it is about the pre -conditions of abuse letting in scores of men who were able to take advantage of them.

https://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2000/10/forgotten-children-the-background-to-the-childrens-homes-scandals/

I highly recommend reading the whole article. I have just picked out passages that either emphasise the fact that it is MEN who are responsible for abusing children or that highlight patterns that seem to resonate strongly with current circumstances 50 years on.

Bringing us right up to date but including one of those horrors from the past, the case of Frank Beck:

Grooming Gangs, Child Sexual Abuse & Exploitation - WDI FQT Sat 16th Feb 3pm: Zoom

3:00pm - 4:30pm (approx end time). Join anytime.

Host: Amparo Domingo

Anna Fisher (NMN), UK, British Culture, the British Establishment, and the ‘Grooming Gangs’ scandal

Susan Harrison, UK, The Frank Beck Case - a look back to the Leicestershire/Beck case and some common factors of Child Sexual Abuse and Exploitation

Maureen O'Hara, UK, Child sexual abuse: Denial, minimisation and victim-blaming

Jill Raymond, UK, Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

FQT is a women-only space for women who have signed the Declaration on Women's Sex-based Rights. Men are invited to watch the recorded webinars when they are uploaded to YouTube.

To Sign the WDI Declaration: www.womensdeclaration.com/en/

Register for the Webinar: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_Mq9EMIAbTkyNz5gAx4l2DQ

If you miss it, the recording should be up on the WDI YouTube Channel by Wednesday:
https://www.youtube.com/@WomensDeclaration

ps. Sheila Jeffreys is one of the founding members of WDI.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 15/02/2025 05:53

Thank you so much for that, @Bosky. I will read the whole blog post. I didn't know about that staffing change in children's homes but it explains a lot.

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 15/02/2025 06:30

I'm thinking this post might get deleted, but here goes.
I thought supine oral sex man was a dodgy character on the basis of his user name.
But the fact that he has found his way to this particular thread has got me really frightened.
Can other posters please commit this fact to memory?
I guess there's nothing I can do about the fact he is now able to change his user name and continue posting on these threads.
God I hate that they can violate our boundaries even in a virtual space.

DeanElderberry · 15/02/2025 07:32

I had two thoughts, one that maybe some people search keywords and attempt to pull discussions into areas that seem comfortable, like the universal culpability of women, and away from dangerous subjects like bad men. And that (not on this thread only) perhaps there was a wish to distract attention from the Fife business (some chance, it's been gripping).

Bosky · 15/02/2025 11:09

Yesterday (14th Feb) @ / boudicasarmy on X ran a Space with guest speaker Alex Renton, @ / axrenton the journalist who investigated the PIE list and produced the “In Dark Corners” podcasts.

boudicasarmy's account is locked down at the moment, presumably due to her being targeted since being one of the organisers of the postponed London "Million Women March for Children" that had been planned for Mon 17 Feb (Regional Marches are unaffected).

The Space was recorded and if you are Following her and she is Following you then you can find it here (nearly 2hrs 25mins):

https://x.com/boudicasarmy/status/1890476171885769102

SuePine69 · 21/02/2025 14:59

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 15/02/2025 06:30

I'm thinking this post might get deleted, but here goes.
I thought supine oral sex man was a dodgy character on the basis of his user name.
But the fact that he has found his way to this particular thread has got me really frightened.
Can other posters please commit this fact to memory?
I guess there's nothing I can do about the fact he is now able to change his user name and continue posting on these threads.
God I hate that they can violate our boundaries even in a virtual space.

Violate your boundaries? Someone said that Radical Feminists have always protected children from paedophiles. I said I don't believe that. Someone else tried to show that a leading Radical Feminist was active in combatting PIE decades ago. I asked for evidence of that. Now you say that I am violating your boundaries!

SuePine69 · 21/02/2025 15:17

Who is talking about the universal culpability of women? There are big issues in society such as paedophilia and trafficking. Different people have different ideas about how to solve these problems. Some people take an ideological approach, fail to understand the issue, and do more harm than good.

Who is talking about bad men? I have mentioned George Bush junior and I may have mentioned John R Miller who was the one who got the American government to put pressure on the Japanese government to stop visas for tens of thousands of women from the Philippines.

He did this because he thought that they must be trafficked. However, Professor of Sociology and Gender and Sexuality Studies Rhacel Perrenas worked in Japan with these women and knew that they weren't prostitutes.

John Miller should have consulted Professor Perrenas and so should have Laura Lederer. They wrecked the lives of tens of thousands of women. Professor Perrenas was not culpable but Laura Lederer was. She gave the feminist stamp of approval to the harm done to women by Bush and Miller.

MarieDeGournay · 21/02/2025 15:18

SuePine69 Someone said that Radical Feminists have always protected children from paedophiles. I said I don't believe that.

Well you're wrong; we did. Historical fact. The actual lived experience of real women. Sorry to disappoint you.

You were also given a quote form S. Jeffreys
'"We formed groups to fight the abolition or reduction of the age of consent and I was in one of these in Leeds in the UK in 1978. We were successful in defeating their aims and showing that paedophilia was violence against children."

Again, this is true, and there are many people, eyewitnesses, who can vouch for it. And as a PP pointed out, actual written evidence in the S Jeffreys archive.

Very inconvenient for you. I'm afraid you're no match for verifiable historical fact, eyewitnesses and lived experience.

SuePine69 · 21/02/2025 15:28

Show me where PP pointed out that there is actual written evidence from the Sheila Jeffreys archive. I know what she said recently about fighting the abolition or the reduction of the age of consent. Not only is there no evidence of this from the time, but her claims don't even make sense.

There was never any chance of the age of consent getting abolished. There was never any chance of it being reduced, except for gay men, from 21 to 16.

So she wasn't pioneer in the fight against paedophilia. According to Professor Amia Srinivasan she was a pioneer in one thing though. She was a pioneer in cancel culture.

DeanElderberry · 21/02/2025 15:31

And there is no way the actions of Americans regarding an American issue in the 21st century in some way negate the actions of British people wrt a British issue in the 1970s.

MarieDeGournay · 21/02/2025 15:40

SuePine69 · 21/02/2025 15:28

Show me where PP pointed out that there is actual written evidence from the Sheila Jeffreys archive. I know what she said recently about fighting the abolition or the reduction of the age of consent. Not only is there no evidence of this from the time, but her claims don't even make sense.

There was never any chance of the age of consent getting abolished. There was never any chance of it being reduced, except for gay men, from 21 to 16.

So she wasn't pioneer in the fight against paedophilia. According to Professor Amia Srinivasan she was a pioneer in one thing though. She was a pioneer in cancel culture.

I would point out again all the mass of evidence about SJ and other lesbian feminists opposing PIE in the 1980s, but I can't be bothered as I don't believe SuePine69 ever posted anything on here.

I mean she might claim she posted something, but I just don't believe her. Show me where SuePine69 has ever posted anything? I don't believe her - not only is there no evidence of this from the time, but her claims don't even make sense.

See how silly it makes you look to keep denying provable reality?

Thelnebriati · 21/02/2025 22:27

I see the goalposts have been moved again! She now has to be a ''pioneer in the fight against paedophilia'', and the proof has to be on the internet but from a time before the internet existed.

TheDowagerCountessofPembroke · 21/02/2025 22:33

How about rather than arguing about of a woman did enough or not men stop having sex with children.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/02/2025 05:53

TheDowagerCountessofPembroke · 21/02/2025 22:33

How about rather than arguing about of a woman did enough or not men stop having sex with children.

Indeed. Sadly for some men fighting against women's rights and against safeguarding children is never ending 🙄

SuePine69 · 28/02/2025 12:14

Thelnebriati · 21/02/2025 22:27

I see the goalposts have been moved again! She now has to be a ''pioneer in the fight against paedophilia'', and the proof has to be on the internet but from a time before the internet existed.

There is proof on the internet that in the 1970s and 1980s she encouraged women not to marry but instead become lesbians. There is proof on the internet that Mary Whitehouse supported the Protection of Children Act 1978. There is nothing to show that Sheila Jeffreys supported the Protection of Children Act 1978.

DeanElderberry · 28/02/2025 12:22

SuePine69 · 10/01/2025 11:35

All feminists object to blatant sexism. There were feminists who were anti-men and anti-sex. Sheila Jeffreys comes to mind. She didn't believe that women should have sex with men. She said that orgasms are overrated.

As far as I can tell, Sheila Jeffreys had nothing to say about PIE or paedophilia. I could be wrong about that, but I can't find anything.

So four days into the start of this thread you introduced Sheila Jeffreys. I'd never heard of her - unlike Mary Whitehouse and sundry others on different sides in the debates re: protection of children. Seven weeks on you are still banging on about SJ, who was not the subject of the thread.

Why are you so obsessed with her, when she is not what the thread is about?

TheDowagerCountessofPembroke · 28/02/2025 16:58

Again. None of this is the fault of women. It’s the fault of men who sexually abuse children. They are the problem not one woman.

SuePine69 · 07/03/2025 11:47

DeanElderberry · 28/02/2025 12:22

So four days into the start of this thread you introduced Sheila Jeffreys. I'd never heard of her - unlike Mary Whitehouse and sundry others on different sides in the debates re: protection of children. Seven weeks on you are still banging on about SJ, who was not the subject of the thread.

Why are you so obsessed with her, when she is not what the thread is about?

Edited

The reason why we have discussed Mary Whitehouse is because she genuinely opposed paedophilia. She supported the Protection of Children Act 1978. As did a few other people at the time.

The reason why I mentioned Sheila Jeffreys was because someone (MarieDeGornay) said that feminists who opposed PIE and other things in the 1970s are not recognized today for their wisdom. From the context it seemed that she was talking about Radical Feminists.

I replied that I don't think that paedophilia was a big issue for Radical Feminists in the 1970s. I used Sheila Jeffreys as an example of a Radical Feminist active in the 1970s. MarieDeGournay chose not to respond to my post and we could have left it at that.

However, Bosky found something by Sheila Jeffreys from 2021 claiming she was at the forefront of the battle against paedophilia. My reply was that she can't have been that concerned about paedophilia because nobody can find anything from the 1970s about that, although there is plenty of stuff about other opinions such as 'Political Lesbianism: The Case Against Heterosexuality'.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/03/2025 12:11

SuePine69 · 07/03/2025 11:47

The reason why we have discussed Mary Whitehouse is because she genuinely opposed paedophilia. She supported the Protection of Children Act 1978. As did a few other people at the time.

The reason why I mentioned Sheila Jeffreys was because someone (MarieDeGornay) said that feminists who opposed PIE and other things in the 1970s are not recognized today for their wisdom. From the context it seemed that she was talking about Radical Feminists.

I replied that I don't think that paedophilia was a big issue for Radical Feminists in the 1970s. I used Sheila Jeffreys as an example of a Radical Feminist active in the 1970s. MarieDeGournay chose not to respond to my post and we could have left it at that.

However, Bosky found something by Sheila Jeffreys from 2021 claiming she was at the forefront of the battle against paedophilia. My reply was that she can't have been that concerned about paedophilia because nobody can find anything from the 1970s about that, although there is plenty of stuff about other opinions such as 'Political Lesbianism: The Case Against Heterosexuality'.

Feminist who was feministing in the 1970s here. It may have escaped your notice but the internet and social media didn't exist then. So despite the presence of written media, the words and actions of countless feminists & women's political action were not recorded and shared with the detail that they are nowadays.

I was aware of some concern in women's circles in the late 70s about paedophilia but these were different times and then we just weren't as aware of the sick predatory paedophilic behaviour of so many grim men.

Having said that, I'm not sure why your personal obsession with Sheila Jeffrey's activism is currently derailing this thread so am not going to engage in a debate with you - just sharing my lived experience.

TheDowagerCountessofPembroke · 07/03/2025 12:57

The battle against paedophillia is for men to stop having sex with children. It’s not up to women. Women aren’t, with a couple of exceptions, the ones having sex with children.