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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ban on puberty blockers to be made indefinite on experts’ advice

291 replies

IDareSay · 11/12/2024 13:54

Good news, just released:

“The Commission on Human Medicines (CHM) has provided independent expert advice that there is currently an unacceptable safety risk in the continued prescription of puberty blockers to children. It recommends indefinite restrictions while work is done to ensure the safety of children and young people.”

www.gov.uk/government/news/ban-on-puberty-blockers-to-be-made-indefinite-on-experts-advice

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 12/12/2024 08:08

certainagedwoman · 12/12/2024 00:47

I see Willoughby is spreading lies about PBs being totally safe,,,

Did IW take PB? Are they a medical professional or research scientist? or are they someone who went through male puberty, fathered a child and then transitioned.
How is their lived experience relevant to whether or not children should be put on medication that suppresses puberty with potential irreversible consequences?

certainagedwoman · 12/12/2024 08:38

And IW's lies about the safety of PBs go unchallenged on Twitter as he only allows replies from people who follow him.

Nasty, dangerous man.

MrBungle · 12/12/2024 09:24

certainagedwoman · 12/12/2024 00:47

I see Willoughby is spreading lies about PBs being totally safe,,,

Can’t we community note her into silence?

certainagedwoman · 12/12/2024 09:32

@MrBungle

Somebody should...

SinnerBoy · 12/12/2024 09:41

I read quite a lot of that thread and Himdia was about the only person supporting Denyer's deluded, false assertions. There were some excoriating responses, I kept mine respectful.

FlowchartRequired · 12/12/2024 09:43

Misery loves company, so as many children as possible need to stand under the sword of Damocles with me.

That's what some posts make me think of.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/12/2024 09:48

certainagedwoman · 12/12/2024 00:47

I see Willoughby is spreading lies about PBs being totally safe,,,

If enough families take their children abroad for puberty blockers and surgery we might need a law similar to the FGM Act which makes it illegal to take a child abroad to have something done to their body which isn't legal in the UK.

MalagaNights · 12/12/2024 10:12

The fact that so many on here are so confident the trials won't take place when they are due to start recruiting in 4/8 weeks time, the proposed protocols have been shared by the nhs and Wes said yesterday the trials would not be capped... really really worries me.

There is no consensus that no gender confused children require blockers except on here. Cass did not conclude this.

Genspect are trying to challenge the trials but even they aren't arguing no children should be given puberty blockers because they can't produce that evidence because it doesn't exist. Even though it seems bloody obvious to us.

Agreement we're right on here does not translate into medical consensus and policy.

Cass supported the idea of gender identity and some children benefitting from blockers. So the door to test that hypothesis is now open.

The new clinics are hugely compromised. We have no idea the extent to which the medical professions have been captured. The belief that it'll all be fine now because of medical ethics was what allowed the Tavi to happen. The trust in doctors to be ethical and rational was a mistake.

Wes and Cass have said they'll be no limit to the numbers on these trials.

The clinics are run by clinicians who believe in the notion of a trans child and are part of wpath.

Yes we're in a better position now to scrutinise and challenge, and to do that we need to get our heads out of the sand in thinking it's all over and vulnerable children now won't be given puberty blockers.

We still have this 'evidence' hoop to jump through, and more children are going to be harmed in getting that evidence.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/12/2024 10:12

@BonfireLady Flowers

You might remember that my daughter also had a situation where CAMHS were trying to lead her down the gender route.

I am really glad that your daughter is now prepared to engage in counselling and I can totally see why you are concerned about the service in question. I don't think they are safe for your daughter either given what they have said to you.

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:14

BonfireLady · 11/12/2024 18:09

I'm going to add a personal note to this thread. I have a difficult day ahead of me tomorrow (meeting in school... related to the wider subject of gender identity) and I need to vent.

Why do I specifically need to vent today on this thread?

I'm so fucking angry. Partly about my meeting tomorrow but that's by the by. My meeting is about safety and fairness in relation to mixed sex sports in school. I mentioned on a previous thread that my daughter had been injured by a spiked volleyball that was hit by a boy. She's lucky that the net took most of the impact (she was playing at the front of the court, right by the net) and that all she was left with was a black eye, broken glasses and a cut to the eye from the broken glasses arm. It could have been a lot worse. Anyway. That's not why I'm really angry right now.

My specific anger today is because I came as close to losing my temper as I have so far, but I managed to rein it in. If I can't control my anger, I'll be "proving" that I'm a threat to my daughter, such is the well trodden playbook that so many parents will be familiar with.

My daughter desperately needs counselling. Not for gender identity issues, she's no longer actively gender questioning. She needs counselling because she's really struggling with adolesence. She's autistic and struggling with friendships. She's hurting because friendships go wrong. She gets overwhelmed and sometimes this can lead to a meltdown, especially if her anxiety is already high (which it is because she's baffled by how friendships work) and there is a trigger at just the wrong moment.

Previously she resisted counselling but now she's ready. Annoyingly, she's very specific about which counselling service she wants to go to, but we're working with that as it's better than complete refusal.

I've been trying to speak to the counselling service for a couple of months now to talk about her safeguarding needs around gender identity and autism conflation. They finally contacted me by email on Friday. Telling me that they had a space for her this week on Monday. Obviously we can't take that space until we know that the counsellor who will work with her understands that when my daughter talks about hating her breasts, and that she finds sex based stereotypes confusing and unnecessary, and that there's lots of stuff in school and online about this kind of thing, the counselling is not "neutral" if the counsellor isn't aware of the Cass Report. My daughter will mostly want to talk about friendships, but as she builds a rapport with her counsellor, I have no doubt that she'll share some of the things she still talks to me about regarding breasts, periods and how she hates how puberty has changed everything. She was happy as she was.

They phoned me today. I've been told we risk losing the place if we don't take the counselling now. But what made me really angry is that the lady I spoke to told me that they have lots of experience talking to autistic girls about their feelings (confidentially of course), that the Cass Report has no relevance to their counselling service and had I considered that my concerns were actually related to my own anxiety about my daughter growing up and finding her own identity. They offered me counselling to help with this.

For fuck's sake.

I shouldn't have to work this hard to safeguard my daughter and to get her the care that she needs to help her navigate the twists and turns of being an adolescent autistic girl.

Butterfly, I think you got some of my anger because of what you said about how we already know what the results of the trial will be. You didn't deserve all my anger, so that's why I added the edit. If you genuinely have experienced debilitating feelings of gender dysphoria (I'll take it at face value that you have) that must be awful. But that doesn't mean your experience invalidates the concerns of parents like me. Or of women who don't want TW identifying into women's sports, spaces and services and other similar things that I've seen you comment on.

Edited

Thankyou for sharing. It sounds like you're going through an extremely difficult time and I'm sorry it's such a tortuous landscape to negotiate.

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:18

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/12/2024 20:01

How can there be a benefit, in any other way that immediately short term and psychological, for anyone in blocking a natural bodily process - for goodness sake - and then adding in hormones in quantities not suited to the natural constitution?

Dysphoria turns into short term Euphoria - and then reality sets in.

Edited

If you listened to us then you would know.

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:25

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 12/12/2024 08:08

Did IW take PB? Are they a medical professional or research scientist? or are they someone who went through male puberty, fathered a child and then transitioned.
How is their lived experience relevant to whether or not children should be put on medication that suppresses puberty with potential irreversible consequences?

Would you like to hear what someone who did take PB's has to say on the subject?

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 10:26

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:18

If you listened to us then you would know.

I have; that is how I know the above. I've listened, read, and watched many accounts, testimonies and documentaries.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 10:28

MalagaNights · 12/12/2024 10:12

The fact that so many on here are so confident the trials won't take place when they are due to start recruiting in 4/8 weeks time, the proposed protocols have been shared by the nhs and Wes said yesterday the trials would not be capped... really really worries me.

There is no consensus that no gender confused children require blockers except on here. Cass did not conclude this.

Genspect are trying to challenge the trials but even they aren't arguing no children should be given puberty blockers because they can't produce that evidence because it doesn't exist. Even though it seems bloody obvious to us.

Agreement we're right on here does not translate into medical consensus and policy.

Cass supported the idea of gender identity and some children benefitting from blockers. So the door to test that hypothesis is now open.

The new clinics are hugely compromised. We have no idea the extent to which the medical professions have been captured. The belief that it'll all be fine now because of medical ethics was what allowed the Tavi to happen. The trust in doctors to be ethical and rational was a mistake.

Wes and Cass have said they'll be no limit to the numbers on these trials.

The clinics are run by clinicians who believe in the notion of a trans child and are part of wpath.

Yes we're in a better position now to scrutinise and challenge, and to do that we need to get our heads out of the sand in thinking it's all over and vulnerable children now won't be given puberty blockers.

We still have this 'evidence' hoop to jump through, and more children are going to be harmed in getting that evidence.

I suspect the 'trials' have already begun. The new gender clinics are up and running.

https://www.alderhey.nhs.uk/new-specialist-gender-service-for-children-and-young-people-opens/

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/12/2024 10:34

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:25

Would you like to hear what someone who did take PB's has to say on the subject?

I'd prefer to listen to clinicians, to see the once banned research happening and informing practice. I'd prefer to hear from parents struggling with protecting their children from all the dodgy online proponents of drugs and surgey.

Everyone who works with children knows there's a massive problem with adults pushing the "It happened to me and I'm OK" narrative. So often those adults are only interested in their own experiences and will tediously recount them to anyone in the vicinity. Often these adults are profoundly ignorant about children's psychological and health needs - as is sometimes evidenced on here.

Children deserve so much better. They need evidence & research based healthcare. They need effective therapeutic support.

They don't need self absorbed activists with zero professional expertise attempting to influence them or their health care.

BonfireLady · 12/12/2024 10:34

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:14

Thankyou for sharing. It sounds like you're going through an extremely difficult time and I'm sorry it's such a tortuous landscape to negotiate.

Thank you. I appreciate you acknowledging and saying that.

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:36

MalagaNights · 12/12/2024 10:12

The fact that so many on here are so confident the trials won't take place when they are due to start recruiting in 4/8 weeks time, the proposed protocols have been shared by the nhs and Wes said yesterday the trials would not be capped... really really worries me.

There is no consensus that no gender confused children require blockers except on here. Cass did not conclude this.

Genspect are trying to challenge the trials but even they aren't arguing no children should be given puberty blockers because they can't produce that evidence because it doesn't exist. Even though it seems bloody obvious to us.

Agreement we're right on here does not translate into medical consensus and policy.

Cass supported the idea of gender identity and some children benefitting from blockers. So the door to test that hypothesis is now open.

The new clinics are hugely compromised. We have no idea the extent to which the medical professions have been captured. The belief that it'll all be fine now because of medical ethics was what allowed the Tavi to happen. The trust in doctors to be ethical and rational was a mistake.

Wes and Cass have said they'll be no limit to the numbers on these trials.

The clinics are run by clinicians who believe in the notion of a trans child and are part of wpath.

Yes we're in a better position now to scrutinise and challenge, and to do that we need to get our heads out of the sand in thinking it's all over and vulnerable children now won't be given puberty blockers.

We still have this 'evidence' hoop to jump through, and more children are going to be harmed in getting that evidence.

Do you care about the evidence though? It sounds like you are lining up your 'the clinics are all compromised' dismissal already.

I welcome conclusive evidence that puberty blockers are catastrophically harmful and do not address gender incongruence. I would be very confused since it would not in any way match my own experiences, but if those turn out to be the findings then something must have caused them.

What we do from there is important. Saint Cass herself said we should not consider trans and non-trans outcomes in a biased fashion and people should get treatment if they need it.

If it is not safe to completely suppress puberty then we may still be able to gain some beneficial effects from partial suppression using a specific medication profile.

It may strengthen the case for earlier interventions with CSH for patients who have a clear clinical need and where PB's aren't with a safe window.

At the end of the day, this is about safety and the best possible individual outcome isn't it?

Isn't it?

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 10:40

"Recruitment for the trial is due to start in 2025, months later than originally anticipated. Young people will likely be referred after a full assessment by specialist clinicians. A lot is still to be determined, including how many participants there will be.

Ultimately the scientists running the trials will need to establish whether people who get an intervention are better off than those who do not. In this case, do the puberty blocking drugs and their effect make the young people better off?

"Better off" in this instance includes the extent to which a young person's mental health may be improved if they are happy with their body. Quality of life is determined by various factors including self-confidence and self-esteem. As well as getting the personal views from the young people and parents, the trial could measure actual real life changes, such as time spent in education and time spent with family and friends.

But there are potential harms to study too, such as the possibility of reduced bone density. Some scientists suggest examining the impact on learning using a form of IQ test.Normal brain development is influenced by both puberty and chronological age, which usually act in tandem during adolescence. It's not clear how this is affected when puberty is suppressed. Brain scans are one way of understanding any effect.

Some scientists believe it may be possible to simply randomly assign trial participants into two groups where one gets puberty blockers, the other gets a placebo and nobody is aware which group they're in.But others believe a placebo group is impossible. They say the placebo group would go through puberty, realise they weren't on puberty blockers and potentially drop out of the trial or even find other ways to obtain puberty blockers. Either scenario would reduce the validity of the results.

Professor Gordon Guyatt and others have outlined a potential trial where the group of patients not receiving drugs would be made up entirely of children who are keen to socially transition, such as by changing how they dress and altering their name and pronouns. Researchers could then monitor the difference between the groups.

A second possibility is that both trial groups are given puberty blockers but one group gets them after a delay, during which time they receive psychological and emotional support. This would help researchers determine, among other things, whether their gender-related distress subsides during that delay while receiving the support.

Alongside this there would be a "matched" control group that doesn't take a placebo or puberty blockers, whether for health reasons or because they don't want to, that get similar tests and scans"

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/12/2024 10:41

"Saint Cass" Never misses an opportunity to sneer about a woman 🙄

BonfireLady · 12/12/2024 10:42

lifeturnsonadime · 12/12/2024 10:12

@BonfireLady Flowers

You might remember that my daughter also had a situation where CAMHS were trying to lead her down the gender route.

I am really glad that your daughter is now prepared to engage in counselling and I can totally see why you are concerned about the service in question. I don't think they are safe for your daughter either given what they have said to you.

Thank you.

Yes, I do. 💐

Ironically, after an initially terrible start, CAMHS ended up being a positive experience for us on this (I have written about some of this on other threads). The counselling service I was liaising with is via a CAMHS referral. That's one of the reasons that my daughter wants to stick with it, because she built up a trust with how she was being supported. But....

I don't think they are safe for your daughter either given what they have said to you.

Neither do I. Frustratingly, I've likely now also got more of an uphill battle to demonstrate why I'm not just an unreasonable, anxious parent etc etc.

JazzyJelly · 12/12/2024 10:44

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2024 10:36

Blimey, what an increase in referrals to GIDS from that article! 15 adolescent females in 2009, to 1,071 in 2016!

Why are teen girls so unhappy with their bodies, and why do they think the solution is to appear male instead?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/12/2024 10:51

JazzyJelly · 12/12/2024 10:44

Blimey, what an increase in referrals to GIDS from that article! 15 adolescent females in 2009, to 1,071 in 2016!

Why are teen girls so unhappy with their bodies, and why do they think the solution is to appear male instead?

Social contagion via online is a massive issue. These girls have been gaslit into believing their bodies are flawed but a sex change is the cure by adult male dominated groups. They don't give a fuck about the welfare of teenage girls but use them for their own validation.
We know how toxic social contagion is with mental health disorders (eating, self harm etc) but society has been conned into allowing these people to gaslight our children.

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:53

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/12/2024 10:41

"Saint Cass" Never misses an opportunity to sneer about a woman 🙄

You're quite right, it was wrong to canonise someone who caused immense harm to desperate vulnerable children and whose legacy continues to do so, regardless of the pseudo-religious following they may have gained.

She's already fallen from grace anyway. Didn't go far enough, and now her words are becoming quite a shackle aren't they?

ButterflyHatched · 12/12/2024 10:58

JazzyJelly · 12/12/2024 10:44

Blimey, what an increase in referrals to GIDS from that article! 15 adolescent females in 2009, to 1,071 in 2016!

Why are teen girls so unhappy with their bodies, and why do they think the solution is to appear male instead?

How many trans men did you know in 2009?

How many did you see on tv?

How many did you see in daily life?

Most female-assigned trans kids in 2009 still had no idea transition was even something the NHS supported. It was all still 'hurrhurr look how ugly that trans woman is' punchlines and occasional tragedy porn.

I know loads of those men now. They felt what they felt throughout childhood and transitioned as soon as they knew it was even an option for them.

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