Page 23 | The latest fallouts in GC world

Pluvia · 2024-12-11T11:06:27+00:00

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what. If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

Floisme · 16/12/2024 16:05

What just happened?

I feel like I've just fallen down a wormhole back to Women's Consciousness Raising in 1974 - I was told I wasn't a feminist then too.

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/12/2024 16:13

UtopiaPlanitia · 16/12/2024 15:33

Not all schools of feminist thought are left wing - Liberal feminism for a start is not left wing. Marxist feminism is. There are other schools of feminism that incorporate left wing and right wing ideas. In this day and age, it sometimes feels like there’s a type of feminism for every taste.

The entire canon of political theory is people (largely men in the old days) coming up with explanations that, for them, make sense of the world and the society around them. I don’t think I’ve ever felt that any one political theory was absolutely correct in every aspect of its analysis of human society - it’s a bit like how Newtonian physics is a great description of natural laws but it breaks down on the quantum level and so another theory of quantum physics is needed to describe what happens there.

Personally, I tend to see value in lots of different ways of explaining human societies - I even see value in the political theories I largely disagree with too because they might have some information that accurately describes aspects of society but they also help me better frame my own conceptualisation of the world around me. Edmund Burke, for example, was a conservative thinker but he still has some interesting things to say about the way humans are and what makes for a stable society.

I think that’s one of the reasons I like this board so much - it’s people from different backgrounds and different opinions coming together to analyse or discuss society. I find myself exposed to lots of new viewpoints and ways of thinking and I find that valuable in working out how I think and feel about things.

It’s also a bloody good form of consciousness raising for women, which I think is very useful and keeps alive a very useful feminist ‘tradition’ from the second wave days.

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Great post!

Yes, this board is just the best. It is all the richer and ultimately more radical because there is a willingness to break new ground There is always something new to learn or to understand, because such a diverse range of contributors means that people are bringing all manner of learning and experience with them. No fear of exploration, nor of questioning.

Original poster

Pluvia · 16/12/2024 16:30

CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 14:53

Home making is far more than housework and childcare. Home making springs from a philosophy of women making a comfortable and restful environment for men to come home to at the end of the day.

Every adult and lots of children do housework. They do not do home making.

Martha Stewart speaks!

OP posts:

Datun · 16/12/2024 16:33

CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 15:21

Gail Dines does a good talk about what feminism is. You will be able to find her video on youtube.
She has a male partner and sons, so maybe a bit more acceptable source to you than Andrea Dworkin.

Don't seem to like women very much, feminist or not.

Datun · 16/12/2024 16:38

CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 15:12

Fine you are not a feminist.
It is a shame the feminist board is largely dominated by women who either do not understand feminism, or who are not feminists.

There aren't any rules about who can post or not. Fortunately. Otherwise no new women would be talking about feminism.

Excluding women on the basis of that they think? I'm beginning to understand the issue with KJK giving them all a microphone.

UrsulasHerbBag · 16/12/2024 16:56

Don’t give the domesticated zombies agency or they will talk nonsense, best leave it to us accredited real feminists to talk for them. There lies the whole problem the stupid uneducated women getting out of their ironing bags and talking for themselves, about their experiences and being cheeky enough to think they can make a contribution.

Helleofabore · 16/12/2024 16:56

UrsulasHerbBag · 16/12/2024 16:56

Don’t give the domesticated zombies agency or they will talk nonsense, best leave it to us accredited real feminists to talk for them. There lies the whole problem the stupid uneducated women getting out of their ironing bags and talking for themselves, about their experiences and being cheeky enough to think they can make a contribution.

Yes, it all sounds familiar.

AlisonDonut · 16/12/2024 17:14

So working class women can't be feminists.

Neither can right wing women.

Neither can working class women go and study feminism.

Stay at home women cant be feminists (especially not make up wearing mothers).

Upper class women can't be feminists due to where they got their money from (probably slavery).

And neither can women who participate in capitalist ventures to feed their family and put a roof over their heads.

So who exactly does that leave who is allowed to be a feminist?

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 16/12/2024 17:23

AlisonDonut · 16/12/2024 17:14

So working class women can't be feminists.

Neither can right wing women.

Neither can working class women go and study feminism.

Stay at home women cant be feminists (especially not make up wearing mothers).

Upper class women can't be feminists due to where they got their money from (probably slavery).

And neither can women who participate in capitalist ventures to feed their family and put a roof over their heads.

So who exactly does that leave who is allowed to be a feminist?

Ones who've expended a minimum of 5 years' worth of "intellectual labour meticulously distinguishing the materialist feminist arguments"? Or something.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/12/2024 17:39

Yes, this board is just the best. It is all the richer and ultimately more radical because there is a willingness to break new ground There is always something new to learn or to understand, because such a diverse range of contributors means that people are bringing all manner of learning and experience with them. No fear of exploration, nor of questioning.

Definitely.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/12/2024 17:39

Excluding women on the basis of that they think? I'm beginning to understand the issue with KJK giving them all a microphone.

Exactly.

Datun · 16/12/2024 17:42

AlisonDonut · 16/12/2024 17:14

So working class women can't be feminists.

Neither can right wing women.

Neither can working class women go and study feminism.

Stay at home women cant be feminists (especially not make up wearing mothers).

Upper class women can't be feminists due to where they got their money from (probably slavery).

And neither can women who participate in capitalist ventures to feed their family and put a roof over their heads.

So who exactly does that leave who is allowed to be a feminist?

And neither can women who participate in capitalist ventures to feed their family and put a roof over their heads.

Like sell T-shirts to pay for security when they Let Women Speak.

Ahh now the patriarchy makes perfect sense!

There's no one with the correct qualifications to oppose it. Dastardly!!

Datun · 16/12/2024 17:47

And, you know what? I wouldn't mind if there was a discussion about feminist theory, the political machinations and why it is what it is.

But that's not it.

This is all to stick it to Posy Parker!

UtopiaPlanitia · 16/12/2024 17:52

Datun · 16/12/2024 17:42

And neither can women who participate in capitalist ventures to feed their family and put a roof over their heads.

Like sell T-shirts to pay for security when they Let Women Speak.

Ahh now the patriarchy makes perfect sense!

There's no one with the correct qualifications to oppose it. Dastardly!!

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To quote Bridget Phetasy, “Patriarchy so crafty!”

TempestTost · 16/12/2024 18:00

illinivich · 16/12/2024 07:56

Back to the men as makeup artists and hairdresser, for a minute.

Understandably, feminism has worked to get women into career traditionally difficult to get into, car mechanics, law. The flip side of that is men in traditionally women's jobs.

But the reason many career paths have been male or female isnt necessarily misogyny. Women been excluded from the prestige of law isnt the same as men been excluded from been a midwife and performing smears.

If women are happy for strange men touch them when cutting their hair or putting on make up, thats fine. But i dont think they should be shamed for not wanting it. If a woman doesnt want jeff to give her a make over, i dont think there should be any awkwardness about saying no.

And thats the problem i see. Many women draw the line at smears, but havent thought about the social pressure other women feel when their line is different.

Edited

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CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 18:46

UrsulasHerbBag · 16/12/2024 16:56

Don’t give the domesticated zombies agency or they will talk nonsense, best leave it to us accredited real feminists to talk for them. There lies the whole problem the stupid uneducated women getting out of their ironing bags and talking for themselves, about their experiences and being cheeky enough to think they can make a contribution.

Why do you say uneducated?
I have less formal education and money than some of the people on this thread.

CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 18:48

And there is at least one academic on this thread agreeing with you all.
It seems to have become a reflex for some of you to call those who disagree with you as educated or academics or middle class.

AlisonDonut · 16/12/2024 18:48

CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 18:46

Why do you say uneducated?
I have less formal education and money than some of the people on this thread.

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Everyone has less money and education than some people and more education and money than other people.

And less money and more education than some people. And more money and less education than some people.

CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 18:53

@AlisonDonut everyone on this thread who has talked about their education or job has more formal education and money than me.
I am not the one insulting others as educated.

ArabellaScott · 16/12/2024 18:59

Well, you're not making a whole lot of sense to be honest, Candy. I get that you are angry at the women on here. For being rich/educated/uneducated/farmworkers/conservatives/homemakers/make up wearers/not feminists/the wrong sort of feminists etc.

I don't really get why.

CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 19:03

@ArabellaScott I am not at all angry. I am simply highlighting the insults being used by other woman here against those who agree with CJC.
And pointing out that feminism has a real meaning. You can make up a meaning if you want, just as others make up what they think sex means.

UrsulasHerbBag · 16/12/2024 19:05

I was making a generalisation about how a lot of women feel relegated to not being able to have an opinion about there own lived experiences because they do not have the right credentials. Apologies I wasn’t thinking of you when I posted, I have no idea your level of education (why would I). You do seem to have decided that lots of these posts have been about you or directed at you and I am not sure why you are taking things so personally. The post was about the stereotype of KJK supporters as being “domesticated zombies” “minions” or “pound shop marylin Monroes” although the last one was just for I think. It isn’t an insult to call people educated. It can feel like an insult to use education as a way to look down on others as being lesser.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 16/12/2024 19:06

Candy, you've been really quite insulting tbh. You aren't the ultimate arbiter of feminism and a woman to chooses to be a SAHM can be every bit as much of a feminist as those of us who choose to avoid motherhood altogether.

As an aside, why do you refer to her as CJC? I thought she her initials were JCJ?

UrsulasHerbBag · 16/12/2024 19:06

I think you a reading things as insults that are not actually being used as insults or taking general comments personally.

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/12/2024 19:21

CandyMaker · 16/12/2024 18:46

Why do you say uneducated?
I have less formal education and money than some of the people on this thread.

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That probably goes for half the board.