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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The latest fallouts in GC world

976 replies

Pluvia · 11/12/2024 11:06

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

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34
Brainworm · 14/12/2024 11:34

Safeguarding is a significant part of every working day for me. The principles surrounding safeguarding are cut and dried, good local policies can be (should be) clear and unambiguous. Despite this, and even with this, the reality on the ground is that keeping children and vulnerable adults safe is complex, messy, and full of grey areas.

For example, at a societal level, there is a lot to be said about the language used re ‘gender related distress’ over 'transgender children’. However, when you are dealing with a young person who has stopped eating or feels petrified to leave the house and is making sense of their distress and overwhelm as being entirely attributable to them not being able to tolerate others perceiving them as the sex they are, the terminology argument changes. It’s best to use whichever helps them feel understood, only once they feel understood will they be open to exploring wider or different explanations for their distress.

I bring the above experience to the table when making sense of why Wes Streeting might be referring to ‘trans kids’ rather than gender distressed kids. I imagine he is trying to balance competing needs to challenge a harmful ideology with the need to connect with vulnerable people’s view of the world so they do not feel alienated from the processes in place to protect and support them.

I suggest that anyone who is framing this as a cut and dried issue either isn’t on the front-line, or isn’t working effectively on the front line.

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 14/12/2024 12:02

The thing about good safeguarding is that in many ways it's contrary to human nature. Human nature is that you are part of a group and you trust members of that group and don't examine their behaviour too closely / give them the benefit of the doubt and assume good motives / don't examine the impact of their behaviour. Safeguarding is that everyone is viewed with suspicion with the goal to keep children safe and that the impact on children is put first regardless of whether the people who are impacting them have good intent or not (you could put the insanity over pronouns in this category in many cases). You don't take things on trust.

DBS checks should be part of a far wider safeguarding culture but people think DBS is enough these days - it's become a bit of a tick box exercise. Still important but not sufficient. Paedophiles will always have a period before they're caught, after all.

In the last training I did specific cases were mentioned where safeguarding failures had been found (one of which was abuse in a nursery setting). In every single case the person who blew the whistle had nothing to lose. Whistleblowers are often treated very badly - see Sonia Appleby at the Tavistock and the treatment she received for trying to do safeguarding properly and the other Tavistock whistleblowers too.

In the nursery case it was a girl who was doing her A-levels doing work experience who reported, supported by her parents. She was also financially supported by her parents and on track for university. Nevertheless the training still emphasised how difficult it was for her to report as she knew that colleagues she liked would be unhappy at her reporting and that possibly lose their jobs if the nursery was shut down. But really, she had nothing to lose, it wasn't going to affect her life. There were quite a few other people working at that nursery who didn't report and probably knew what was going on or saw red flags and did nothing because they knew the consequences could be bad for them, most of them probably needed their jobs to survive.

So it's really important that people on the 'outside' of groups can raise safeguarding concerns because to some extent it's difficult for people within groups to do so, and for there to be safeguarding loopholes. The other thread about the theatre director also illustrates this. How many red flags did there need to be there FFS?

In schools there are processes put in place which make all of this easier and more robust and less personal, although human nature is still human nature so people will still let some things slide for people they like and of course there are grey areas. Of course, sometimes safeguarding concerns can be wrong, but the correct response to a safeguarding concern is 'oh my goodness, let's investigate and discuss this I really hope my actions haven't made children less safe' not 'you're being a big meanie and weaponising safeguarding'.

Everyone gets things wrong at times, but if your response is 'nothing to see here' rather than 'oh god, I hope I didn't make a mistake, let's examine what happened' that's a red flag.

Really if safeguarding is being done correctly, then there will be investigations where no action is taken and where the concerns are found to be baseless.

There's also sometimes a tension between safeguarding one child and safeguarding an entire class / school which can be difficult to balance.

AlisonDonut · 14/12/2024 12:26

It is an ever changing beast, and should be part of everyday discussion not sidelined off to one person and everyone else having sloping shoulders about it.

Datun · 14/12/2024 12:30

Really interesting posts. Thanks.

*themostspecialelfintheworkshop *as I was reading your post, I was thinking how awful it is that the only people who could whistle blow are those with nothing to lose. But, as I read further, I understood why that might well be the case.

Is there a push anywhere to make safeguarding reporting anonymous? Always and across the board.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/12/2024 13:09

Datun · 14/12/2024 12:30

Really interesting posts. Thanks.

*themostspecialelfintheworkshop *as I was reading your post, I was thinking how awful it is that the only people who could whistle blow are those with nothing to lose. But, as I read further, I understood why that might well be the case.

Is there a push anywhere to make safeguarding reporting anonymous? Always and across the board.

It's an interesting question. One of the issues about safeguarding is to create a climate of openness that counters the secrecy of abuse. Abusers depend on maintaining a culture of secrecy with their victims unable to speak out. Once it's in the open it's more difficult for an abuser to retain that power. There are cases where anonymous referrals are taken seriously but in my experience there has to be some additional concerns / evidence to support it.

It's why the DBS having a loophole route for trans individuals is such a red flag. Not because those individuals are necessarily abusers But it indicates a mindset where some people consider their need to conceal facts are more important than the needs of children to be rigorously safeguarded. The concept of the sacred caste.

UtopiaPlanitia · 14/12/2024 16:22

AlisonDonut · 14/12/2024 10:39

To understand safeguarding, you have to understand that unless the tutor tells everyone in the room during safeguarding training, there there WILL BE people in that room taking the safeguarding training, who are only taking the safeguarding training to get close to kids, then they don't understand safeguarding either.

Everything else has to fall under that lens.

Everything should be 'if I had to stand up in a court and defend my actions, did I do enough to observe, protect, flag up and refer?'

Everything should be around 'does someone have eyes on the kids/vulnerable people and collegaues for their, and their own colleagues sake'.

Is there a defined referral system? Does everyone know what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't? What are the professional boundaries that everyone needs to stick to? How do we ensure everyone has eyes on at all times? How do we move around the site to ensure we cover the whole area? What happens when something needs flagging and who do you flag to? Who else can assist in making a decision? Is there a review when something is flagged with all the team? Is the policy still fit for purpose? Do any procedures need amending? Do we need to bring another body in? Do we have to report an external agency and who to? Honestly, I could go on for hours about what questions to ask.

Honestly, the whole team needs to be reviewing any out of ordinary behaviour and doing something and documenting what they have done.

In fact, they also need to be aware of perfectly ordinary behaviour in some instances as well.

Remember when they were looking for Holly and Jessica, the news crews were asking everyone to look out for anyone behaving weirdly. I remember shouting at the TV 'No, everyone will be behaving weirdly, look for the person behaving normally'. Cue, the man who did it, on the news, perfectly calm.

Although these days, courts are not about keeping paedophiles away from kids it would seem. Which makes it even more important to keep your own policies at the forefront of everyone's minds.

So for Genspect, they could easily have not promoted books by AGPs, could have not invited an AGP to their conference on a free ticket, could have stipulated 'Business Dress only', could have hired a safeguarding expert onto their board to look at their policies and could have just accepted that for a conference where teenagers actually were, promoting AGP men is actually dangerous as it legitimises AGP men. But they didn't even consider any of that to be an option, didn't learn and have still not hired someone with some expertise in this area.

I used to run a very small training company, and our safeguarding policy and processes were longer than the council we used to get funding from. And that was a decade ago, long before the boys in girls changing rooms was a thing. Or before the advent of tiny cameras in mixed sex facilities.

Genspect's is one page of A4 and Stella is the Safeguarding Lead. Stella who doesn't even understand Safeguarding and tweets what she tweets about those who raise Safeguarding as an issue in this arena. Calling us Ultras.

Lisa Muggeridge on You Tube is a good place to start from her videos about 6 years ago. If you really want to get into the weeds.

Excellent summary, thank you!!

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 14/12/2024 16:24

Edited to add: in response to MrsOverton's 'climate of openness' comments above.

This is true and is the case in schools with a good safeguarding culture. My DDs school, where i volunteer, the staff are always ready to challenge and the response is expected to be open too. No-one is above challenge and this means as a school overall everyone is striving to do better on little things which I think means the big things are less likely to be missed. Every volunteer has to sign an agreement with things in like no mobile phones out when around the children. A small thing to improve safeguarding.

It also means that telling children they need to lie about their observation of sex for some adults to 'be kind' to that adult is a terrible safeguarding failure. It's teaching children to keep secrets for the wants of adults.

UtopiaPlanitia · 14/12/2024 16:24

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 14/12/2024 12:02

The thing about good safeguarding is that in many ways it's contrary to human nature. Human nature is that you are part of a group and you trust members of that group and don't examine their behaviour too closely / give them the benefit of the doubt and assume good motives / don't examine the impact of their behaviour. Safeguarding is that everyone is viewed with suspicion with the goal to keep children safe and that the impact on children is put first regardless of whether the people who are impacting them have good intent or not (you could put the insanity over pronouns in this category in many cases). You don't take things on trust.

DBS checks should be part of a far wider safeguarding culture but people think DBS is enough these days - it's become a bit of a tick box exercise. Still important but not sufficient. Paedophiles will always have a period before they're caught, after all.

In the last training I did specific cases were mentioned where safeguarding failures had been found (one of which was abuse in a nursery setting). In every single case the person who blew the whistle had nothing to lose. Whistleblowers are often treated very badly - see Sonia Appleby at the Tavistock and the treatment she received for trying to do safeguarding properly and the other Tavistock whistleblowers too.

In the nursery case it was a girl who was doing her A-levels doing work experience who reported, supported by her parents. She was also financially supported by her parents and on track for university. Nevertheless the training still emphasised how difficult it was for her to report as she knew that colleagues she liked would be unhappy at her reporting and that possibly lose their jobs if the nursery was shut down. But really, she had nothing to lose, it wasn't going to affect her life. There were quite a few other people working at that nursery who didn't report and probably knew what was going on or saw red flags and did nothing because they knew the consequences could be bad for them, most of them probably needed their jobs to survive.

So it's really important that people on the 'outside' of groups can raise safeguarding concerns because to some extent it's difficult for people within groups to do so, and for there to be safeguarding loopholes. The other thread about the theatre director also illustrates this. How many red flags did there need to be there FFS?

In schools there are processes put in place which make all of this easier and more robust and less personal, although human nature is still human nature so people will still let some things slide for people they like and of course there are grey areas. Of course, sometimes safeguarding concerns can be wrong, but the correct response to a safeguarding concern is 'oh my goodness, let's investigate and discuss this I really hope my actions haven't made children less safe' not 'you're being a big meanie and weaponising safeguarding'.

Everyone gets things wrong at times, but if your response is 'nothing to see here' rather than 'oh god, I hope I didn't make a mistake, let's examine what happened' that's a red flag.

Really if safeguarding is being done correctly, then there will be investigations where no action is taken and where the concerns are found to be baseless.

There's also sometimes a tension between safeguarding one child and safeguarding an entire class / school which can be difficult to balance.

Also an excellent summary, thank you!!

Floisme · 14/12/2024 16:37

Thanks all for the safeguarding posts. I'm out at the moment but will read them properly later.

Datun · 14/12/2024 19:19

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/12/2024 13:09

It's an interesting question. One of the issues about safeguarding is to create a climate of openness that counters the secrecy of abuse. Abusers depend on maintaining a culture of secrecy with their victims unable to speak out. Once it's in the open it's more difficult for an abuser to retain that power. There are cases where anonymous referrals are taken seriously but in my experience there has to be some additional concerns / evidence to support it.

It's why the DBS having a loophole route for trans individuals is such a red flag. Not because those individuals are necessarily abusers But it indicates a mindset where some people consider their need to conceal facts are more important than the needs of children to be rigorously safeguarded. The concept of the sacred caste.

Got it.

it's a shame that anonymous referrals need to have something else to back them up. Because 'the backup' would presumably require exposure of the person raising an issue.

Would it be good if anonymous reporting became completely normal, and raised as many flags as non-anonymous reporting? To me it would, but I'm not in safeguarding. So I might well miss implications.

To me, if people are not advocating for anonymous reporting, that's a red flag in itself.

TempestTost · 14/12/2024 19:58

I suppose the thing is that just like in other areas, if you allow for certain shortcuts you might see some good results, but it would create other problems or trample other values.

Vexations accusations for example could become a real problem. It doesn't have to be often for it to become damaging, and we know that some people will use systems this way.

And people do have a right not to have their lives turned upside down due to accusations they can't address. That's a basic justice issue.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/12/2024 20:06

Datun · 14/12/2024 19:19

Got it.

it's a shame that anonymous referrals need to have something else to back them up. Because 'the backup' would presumably require exposure of the person raising an issue.

Would it be good if anonymous reporting became completely normal, and raised as many flags as non-anonymous reporting? To me it would, but I'm not in safeguarding. So I might well miss implications.

To me, if people are not advocating for anonymous reporting, that's a red flag in itself.

Maybe I've made that sound too definite Datun - it so depends on context. Some anonymous referrals would always be checked out because of the nature of them - a child at risk, maybe not in school, allegations of hearing them being hit . There'd be some checks fo that.
But say professionals wanting to refer abuse without being named - eg a school might refer an allegation of physical abuse but not want to sabotage the relationship with the parent and ask SS to not tell the parent where the allegation came from. They'd be told no - you must be up front. You're part of the network that surrounds the child and can keep them safe.
The safeguarding process aims to identify what puts a child at risk and work out how to stop it - and for that you need transparency.

It's a complex system as themostspecialelfintheworkshop & AlisonDonut's posts explain better than I have.

Edited to add that as TempestTost has just pointed out - there's an issue with vexatious complaints so a balance has to be found - extremely difficult to do in practice.

Datun · 14/12/2024 22:51

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/12/2024 20:06

Maybe I've made that sound too definite Datun - it so depends on context. Some anonymous referrals would always be checked out because of the nature of them - a child at risk, maybe not in school, allegations of hearing them being hit . There'd be some checks fo that.
But say professionals wanting to refer abuse without being named - eg a school might refer an allegation of physical abuse but not want to sabotage the relationship with the parent and ask SS to not tell the parent where the allegation came from. They'd be told no - you must be up front. You're part of the network that surrounds the child and can keep them safe.
The safeguarding process aims to identify what puts a child at risk and work out how to stop it - and for that you need transparency.

It's a complex system as themostspecialelfintheworkshop & AlisonDonut's posts explain better than I have.

Edited to add that as TempestTost has just pointed out - there's an issue with vexatious complaints so a balance has to be found - extremely difficult to do in practice.

Edited

Got it, thank you.

JessaWoo · 15/12/2024 00:01

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/12/2024 08:56

I'm sure it makes some people feel better to pretend KJK is completely obscure, but it isn't true.

That's weird, because a few months ago - on one of the KJK threads - one or other of you said she was. And the rest agreed. Strange how that works, isn't it?

AlisonDonut · 15/12/2024 08:39

JCJ is off on another one.

The latest fallouts in GC world
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2024 09:02

That's weird, because a few months ago - on one of the KJK threads - one or other of you said she was. And the rest agreed. Strange how that works, isn't it?

Have no idea what you're referring to, we're not an interchangeable mass 🤷‍♀️

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2024 09:04

JCJ is off on another one.

Of course she is.

Datun · 15/12/2024 09:07

AlisonDonut · 15/12/2024 08:39

JCJ is off on another one.

Who does she mean? It's not women who are gender critical, that's for sure. That's the whole point of being gender critical.

BackToLurk · 15/12/2024 09:12

Datun · 15/12/2024 09:07

Who does she mean? It's not women who are gender critical, that's for sure. That's the whole point of being gender critical.

KJK

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2024 09:16

What did she actually say, exactly? KJK doesn't consider herself a feminist.

BackToLurk · 15/12/2024 09:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2024 09:16

What did she actually say, exactly? KJK doesn't consider herself a feminist.

Men shouldn't work on make-up counters

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2024 09:23

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2024 09:02

That's weird, because a few months ago - on one of the KJK threads - one or other of you said she was. And the rest agreed. Strange how that works, isn't it?

Have no idea what you're referring to, we're not an interchangeable mass 🤷‍♀️

Speak for yourself.

UrsulasHerbBag · 15/12/2024 09:26

For heavens sake! JCJ has blocked most of the GC feminists on X so how would she know how they all feel? Men who wear make up are just men who wear make up.

There are lots of posters on these boards who are very much GC feminists and really dislike KJK & lots that don’t. Here we are talking about her and her obscurity and apparently she has been obscurely discussed on other boards and we all obscurely hate her.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2024 09:31

Speak for yourself.

Grin
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2024 09:32

Men shouldn't work on make-up counters

I doubt she wants a law passed. It's just a throwaway opinion, I imagine.