The latest fallouts in GC world

[Pluvia]

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

I was trying to work it out the night before last, too. As far as I could tell, it's another flare up of the long-term conflict between Jane Clare Jones and other women who make different decisions to her.

Anyway, if you're trying to catch up, I thought Lorelei, aka hatpinwoman on twiX, had the most useful timeline for working it out in a hurry.

Traditionally these types of threads have ended up as massive bunfights, but I think at least one poster who stirred the pot has gone from mumsnet now.

That's about as far as I've got, too. I started as something of a JCJ fan, partly because she had a video where she explained what Judith Butler was on about. Then I subscribed to The Radical Notion and found that very off-putting, so backed away.

I'm horribly aware of the potential for pot-stirring but my OP is an accurate summary of my position and this was the only place I thought I might get a reasonable overview. I've taken over the TwiX account and about 20% of the incoming tweets seem to be (some are more explicit, others quite gnomic) referring to JCJ. Used to be able to navigate positions by using Julie Bindel as pole star, but that doesn't work these days. Off to read what Lorelei's has to say. Thanks for the heads-up.

Ultras = GC hard-liners? Lite = case-by-case type people who wouldn't mind a 'nice' TW in the ladies loos?

I find it hard to follow! And people seem to get angry very quickly, which is a shame.

"Ultras" was a term coined by Janice Turner, I think, and quickly taken up by the people she was describing. An "ultra" is someone who doesn't make any concessions, eg won't use preferred pronouns.

I'm not completely sure but I think the latest argument is about whether For Women Scotland were right to try to get the meaning of "sex" in the Equality Act clarified, or whether it was a waste of time and we should all be devoting our energies to getting the 2004 Gender Recognition Act repealed. Posie and the other "ultras" think we should be focusing on the repeal of the GRA.

The more moderate GCs think that repealing the GRA is too complicated and a long-term project, if it needs doing at all.

Not sure what exactly JCJ is supposed to have done.

Jean Hatchet seems very angry these days, but I'm not sure what about.

Honestly I think it’s best not to pay too much attention or give too much publicity to this stuff as I fear it would distract from what actually matters.

This is how I feel. Lots of heat and very little light. Emma Hilton seemed to be supporting JCJ inasmuch as she was tweeting last night about something that seemed to have been misinterpreted (to put it in the most neutral way possible). I have a great deal of time for Emma Hilton, so I'd be hesitant to take the anti-JCJ stuff as gospel without a lot of further investigation, which I certainly won't be doing. Would rather stick pins in my eyes. JCJ's stuff I mostly find impenetrable so I don't often read her posts or anything else.

From what I can gather, @RoyalCorgi’s summary above is about right, although I haven’t had a lot of time for TwiX myself lately. I know very little about JCJ - so have no opinion on her - but it always seems [and I don’t go looking, not interested] that they’re personal fall-outs rather than merely differences of opinion. Best staying out of the drama I feel.

What I don't understand, in all the noise about how dreadful it is for people to make personal attacks and attempt to undermine and defame individual women (which it is, of course), is that it looked to me as if that was exactly what the crowd who got so exercised about Posie's approach did to Posie and her colleagues/supporters. For months, at infinite length. Which is nothing to do with whether I think Ultra/Lite approaches are more or less effective or desirable, just an observation about how behaviour comes across.

JCJ is the Clare in the Community of the GC world, the academic version
So verbose, so busy quoting the great minds to show she has read them and understands them better than the unwashed, so eager to see herself as a leading light etc.

Not sure what exactly JCJ is supposed to have done.

Jean Hatchet seems very angry these days, but I'm not sure what about.

They've had a falling out.

And yes @nfkl perfect

Then I subscribed to The Radical Notion and found that very off-putting, so backed away.

Apparently, despite most people thinking it had already died, there is to be a final "Radical Notion" edition soon.

Maybe we can have a Christmas truce.

Football in No Man's Land? The latter being rather appropriately named ...

I have started down the wormhole of La Scapigliata's and HatPinWoman's threads...

I'd be the first to admit that philosophy and logic is not necessarily one of my strong points... I find it very difficult to understand how someone who calls herself a feminist socialist and writes about rape would end up apparently discrediting aspects of Andrea Dworkin's work by finding a parallel between a few words that Dworkin uses and something Andreas Breivik (Norwegian Neo-Nazi terrorist) wrote. I'm struggling to understand any of it, tbh. I just don't do PhD speak. At least now I have an inkling about what it's about, even though it's left me feeling queasy. Thank you.

“Whenever I read the words ‘Peer’s Daughter’ in a headline I know it’s going to be
something about one of you children.”
Lady Redesdale, ‘Muv’ of the Mitford girls

Substitute 'GC fallout' and 'JCJ' and that about sums it up, IME

Ok potted history time.

KJK was due to do a Women's place event in 2018 and KJK at the time was getting her you tube channel up and running and in one video said and I'm paraphrasing, that little girls shouldn't have to wear burkhas.

Because apparently it is racist to say that little girls should not have to wear burkhas. Even though her point was about men and their inability to control themselves not about it being a 'girl's right to wear her burkha'. She also tweeted about this.

WPUK disinvited her and from then on in, it was a campaign against her.

https://womansplaceuk.org/2022/06/22/womans-place-and-posie-parker/

Then back in the day, before KJK was doing tours regularly, she was due to go to the USA to meet up with parents of children who had fallen for gender ideology.

The first issue was that the hosts of the meetups were Hands Across the Aisle and the Heritage Foundation who are against abortion and obviously that is a black mark against her. She also had the audacity to ask Sarah McWotsit in Washington not to use the women's bathrooms.

A couple of other things occurred, during that time. One a far right person came and had a photo taken with KJK and KJK also said nice things about Tommy Robinson and his supposed outing of the Grooming Gangs.

Jean Hatchet was due to go on this trip and pulled out.

So by this point, whilst she was in the USA, the 'feminists' went all out to distance themselves from her.

But they didn't just let her get on with it, they smeared her time and again and got very worked up about her.

They were unhappy that she didn't vet the women coming to her events to speak and that the women were basically, any woman at all. They sidelined themselves as the academics who were the ones with the ologies and as such, felt that they were the ones that should be having the last say on the matter.

JCJ put herself front and centre and in 2020 started the Radical Notion. A publication that was apparently about feminisim. I am listed in the first edition as an original supporter. I never read a fucking word of it, it was all far too bloody up its own arse.

Anyway. The row raged for years with the Academics versus the Randoms. The self appointed mouthpieces versus women who just turned up in the flesh to speak to a microphone and get broadcast across the globe.

Then finally the Journos decided to wade in. But of course they were bound by IPSO regulations. Well, they say they were bound by them but its their choice to join in IPSO. Then the Podcast Bros all came on board and started ripping off pretty much every woman's work in this field.

In 2023 JCJ published a free download called Gender Critical Disputes which very firmly cast KJK as a baddie.

I can't remember if it was before or after but KJK basically called out these self appointed feminists for allowing Gender Identity Ideology to come into universities on their watch.

JCJ ever so often would just issue a 124 tweet thread about how someone they cannot name was a baddie, and put the cat amongst the pigeons every time the discussion settled down.

In Nov 2023 Genspect published a tweet with an AGP in a dress at their conference and it kicked off again, with those saying 'Genspect really shouldn't be profiling an AGP' and others saying they can't put dress codes onto people. Then they had promoted his book, and some said that he hadn't even paid for a ticket but had been invited. It was all very messy.

Earlier this year for whatever reason, Janice Turner decided that interviewing Debbie Hayton, and positioning him as the reasonable Trans Woman and stating that he 'respected women' literally blew people's minds. Those of us that have been following this know he wrote the guidelines to allow men and boys into female spaces in schools in the UK could not believe what the fuck was happening in front of our eyes.

Because people went 'WHAT THE FUCK', Janice called those people that were agog 'ultras' because we wouldn't repsect Debbie Haytons' Pronouns. Many people fell out as they decided which tribe they wanted to stick with. The 'no way' crowd or the 'Hayton is a reasonable trans woman' one. It still rages on.

Then Brianna Wu started doing the same and again, every time a TRa turns into a 'reasonable trans person' and goes on all the Podcast Bro interviews it turns into another round of the same old shit.

Then Michael Foran decided that legally, getting rid of the GRA would put the UK at odds with European Law and because he said so, if you don't agree with him, you are automatically a baddie and an Ultra.

Then the self appointed goodies get all upset every time someone joins up and does something they haven't approved of, and even though many of these are men and nothing to do with women, feminists get blamed for their behaviour and it all kicks off again.

Also, the self appointed purists want to speak to the government in secret and not have gobshites like KJK saying 'No' all over the shop.

Every week another new 'Some of the GC are mental' starts and we have to point out that being GC is just being a normal run of the mill person and it doesn't make you pure and obeyant and can you just all fuck off with this fucking shit please.

There are a million other issues along the way, this is just my observations. Every day another 5 weird things happen so I've missed hundreds.

Thank fucking Christ.

It was Janice Turner who coined the phrase “GC ultras” originally (comparing them to football hooligans, essentially), against those who criticised her Times article interview with / book review of D Hayton, specifically using “she” for Hayton. IIRC. That was a while back now.

It still gets used as a derogatory term by those who think their own approach is the only right way to approach discussions and campaigning.

In your shoes, I’d keep your organisation out of getting involved in any Twitter disputes between other parties, and stick to focusing on your own group’s campaign goals and activities in your Twitter comms.

Just seen that I’m so slow at typing that Alison gave you chapter and verse in the time it took me to produce less than ten lines.

I like basically all the GC voices to an extent and I think the infighting is a shame. That said, you can see why the people who actually go outside and do stuff get annoyed at the criticism from JCJ who seems to think that the whole thing could have been sorted if she'd just been left to publish some lengthy essays in flowery prose.

I saw this post, where I think JCJ is implying that “ultras” were being unrealistic in assuming it was possible to achieve a perfect standard when it comes to boundaries

https://x.com/janeclarejones/status/1817915114634289417

My understanding of the “ultra” position is that they do not accept that any man should ever be treated as if he was a woman, including not using requested pronouns, not centering men anywhere and not conceding that anyone needs to/really benefits from transition and thinks that aiming to remove the GRA (and maybe GR from the EA) is worth pushing.

That doesn’t imply (as I think JCJ is suggesting) that they assume an unrealistic version of what is actually possible. It’s more that their aims are to get as close to that position as possible and that therefore, taking a halfway point carries a risk because rational people who have power, might then assume that position is correct. To give an example, reading the Cass report, you might assume Cass believes in the existence of “trans children” and “gender identity” and that there are some children who would benefit from transitioning, if only we could work out which ones.

She may, or may not, but (I believe) her report suggests she does. LaScapligliata and other “ultras” think that it is risky for logical people to try to “meet transactivists in the middle”. There are various medical groups that are trying that approach to make themselves look reasonable, in the hope that it will allow movement in the direction they/we want, but “ultras” see potential problems with that approach, because you should never compromise yourself by saying things you don’t believe are true.

So for me, that JCJ post is kind of a strawman. “Ultras” don’t expect to achieve those absolute boundaries, but they do think we should be aiming for them.

I joined TwiX earlier this year to try to get a handle on what was happening in the gender wars. The first time two people I was following started sniping at each other I was very concerned. Now I think it's par for the course. I'd keep your group out of it @Pluvia