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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The latest fallouts in GC world

976 replies

Pluvia · 11/12/2024 11:06

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

OP posts:
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TempestTost · 11/12/2024 20:14

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 20:03

@OhBuggerandArse Thanks.
The position where we pretend transitioned people do not exist because sex is real, is simply not practical. And parliament would never support it.
Sex is real. But people have had surgery and taken hormones. These people exist.

That doesn't mean they have to be recognized as the opposite sex by law.

No one things repealing it would make those people disappear in a poof of logic. Most transitioned people don't have a certificate in any case.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2024 20:16

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 20:03

@OhBuggerandArse Thanks.
The position where we pretend transitioned people do not exist because sex is real, is simply not practical. And parliament would never support it.
Sex is real. But people have had surgery and taken hormones. These people exist.

These people exist, yes, and many have had irreversible medical treatment. If I ruled the world we would stop using the word 'transition' to refer to this and to cross-dressing and similar behaviours. It's misleading. Nobody can change sex. It's unkind to lead anyone to believe that they can even get close.

I wish we'd never had the GRA but I am a pragmatist (and I don't rule the world, which is probably for the best). I don't think it will ever be repealed but as others have said we might be able to move to a position where no new applications are allowed and the few people who do have a GRC will become a tiny little group. The activists will move on to another cause.

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 20:18

TempestTost · 11/12/2024 20:14

That doesn't mean they have to be recognized as the opposite sex by law.

No one things repealing it would make those people disappear in a poof of logic. Most transitioned people don't have a certificate in any case.

So how would we practically deal with them? Hospitals? Prisons? Passports?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2024 20:24

Passports, driving licences and birth certificates should all show birth sex. Nothing else makes sense. Hospitals should have sensible arrangements for keeping women and girls separate from men and boys when they have to be in-patients or day patients. Prisons should never be mixed sex.

DrSpartacular · 11/12/2024 20:27

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 20:03

@OhBuggerandArse Thanks.
The position where we pretend transitioned people do not exist because sex is real, is simply not practical. And parliament would never support it.
Sex is real. But people have had surgery and taken hormones. These people exist.

Lots of those people who've had surgery and taken hormones do not have a GRC, and there is no requirement for medical/surgical interventions to get a GRC, so this is largely moot.

DrSpartacular · 11/12/2024 20:29

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 20:18

So how would we practically deal with them? Hospitals? Prisons? Passports?

Hospitals, prisons and passports should be based on actual sex, not pretend sex.

PrimalLass · 11/12/2024 20:30

FriedGold32 · 11/12/2024 16:26

I like basically all the GC voices to an extent and I think the infighting is a shame. That said, you can see why the people who actually go outside and do stuff get annoyed at the criticism from JCJ who seems to think that the whole thing could have been sorted if she'd just been left to publish some lengthy essays in flowery prose.

This is my opinion too. I'm relatively active on GC Twitter and cba with the fallings out.

TempestTost · 11/12/2024 20:55

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 20:18

So how would we practically deal with them? Hospitals? Prisons? Passports?

I don't really understand why you think it's difficult.

I think that however events fall out,what we are likely to see first is that a lot of the privileges that people think come with a GRC will be disallowed, like males in women's spaces or sports.

What will be left are things like passports. I think there are two possibilities here.

One is that no new GRCs are given out, these individuals are allowed to keep their altered documents but they give no special privileges. So a trans woman would still not go in a women's hospital ward or prison. That might be the simpler option. Ideally there would be provision made for those who want to change back. Within a generation it would be done with. (I suspect younger transitioners would end up changing their documents back in a lot of cases, too.)

The other possibility is that they are also required to change their documents back - so done a bit sooner but it would be more faff administratively in the short term, and maybe more push-back.

I'm really not understanding what you think the practical issue would be here, Such a person going into prison, for example, would be assessed individually like all prisoners are, as a potentially vulnerable prisoner.

And what's the issue with passports that you think is going to be a problem?

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 11/12/2024 21:00

Within a generation it would be done with.

And it would stop more and more official documents and public records being falsified. No one wants the government to aid and abet falsifying any other types of records. It could only be a good thing.

MsNeis · 11/12/2024 21:01

AlisonDonut · 11/12/2024 16:13

Ok potted history time.

KJK was due to do a Women's place event in 2018 and KJK at the time was getting her you tube channel up and running and in one video said and I'm paraphrasing, that little girls shouldn't have to wear burkhas.

Because apparently it is racist to say that little girls should not have to wear burkhas. Even though her point was about men and their inability to control themselves not about it being a 'girl's right to wear her burkha'. She also tweeted about this.

WPUK disinvited her and from then on in, it was a campaign against her.

https://womansplaceuk.org/2022/06/22/womans-place-and-posie-parker/

Then back in the day, before KJK was doing tours regularly, she was due to go to the USA to meet up with parents of children who had fallen for gender ideology.

The first issue was that the hosts of the meetups were Hands Across the Aisle and the Heritage Foundation who are against abortion and obviously that is a black mark against her. She also had the audacity to ask Sarah McWotsit in Washington not to use the women's bathrooms.

A couple of other things occurred, during that time. One a far right person came and had a photo taken with KJK and KJK also said nice things about Tommy Robinson and his supposed outing of the Grooming Gangs.

Jean Hatchet was due to go on this trip and pulled out.

So by this point, whilst she was in the USA, the 'feminists' went all out to distance themselves from her.

But they didn't just let her get on with it, they smeared her time and again and got very worked up about her.

They were unhappy that she didn't vet the women coming to her events to speak and that the women were basically, any woman at all. They sidelined themselves as the academics who were the ones with the ologies and as such, felt that they were the ones that should be having the last say on the matter.

JCJ put herself front and centre and in 2020 started the Radical Notion. A publication that was apparently about feminisim. I am listed in the first edition as an original supporter. I never read a fucking word of it, it was all far too bloody up its own arse.

Anyway. The row raged for years with the Academics versus the Randoms. The self appointed mouthpieces versus women who just turned up in the flesh to speak to a microphone and get broadcast across the globe.

Then finally the Journos decided to wade in. But of course they were bound by IPSO regulations. Well, they say they were bound by them but its their choice to join in IPSO. Then the Podcast Bros all came on board and started ripping off pretty much every woman's work in this field.

In 2023 JCJ published a free download called Gender Critical Disputes which very firmly cast KJK as a baddie.

I can't remember if it was before or after but KJK basically called out these self appointed feminists for allowing Gender Identity Ideology to come into universities on their watch.

JCJ ever so often would just issue a 124 tweet thread about how someone they cannot name was a baddie, and put the cat amongst the pigeons every time the discussion settled down.

In Nov 2023 Genspect published a tweet with an AGP in a dress at their conference and it kicked off again, with those saying 'Genspect really shouldn't be profiling an AGP' and others saying they can't put dress codes onto people. Then they had promoted his book, and some said that he hadn't even paid for a ticket but had been invited. It was all very messy.

Earlier this year for whatever reason, Janice Turner decided that interviewing Debbie Hayton, and positioning him as the reasonable Trans Woman and stating that he 'respected women' literally blew people's minds. Those of us that have been following this know he wrote the guidelines to allow men and boys into female spaces in schools in the UK could not believe what the fuck was happening in front of our eyes.

Because people went 'WHAT THE FUCK', Janice called those people that were agog 'ultras' because we wouldn't repsect Debbie Haytons' Pronouns. Many people fell out as they decided which tribe they wanted to stick with. The 'no way' crowd or the 'Hayton is a reasonable trans woman' one. It still rages on.

Then Brianna Wu started doing the same and again, every time a TRa turns into a 'reasonable trans person' and goes on all the Podcast Bro interviews it turns into another round of the same old shit.

Then Michael Foran decided that legally, getting rid of the GRA would put the UK at odds with European Law and because he said so, if you don't agree with him, you are automatically a baddie and an Ultra.

Then the self appointed goodies get all upset every time someone joins up and does something they haven't approved of, and even though many of these are men and nothing to do with women, feminists get blamed for their behaviour and it all kicks off again.

Also, the self appointed purists want to speak to the government in secret and not have gobshites like KJK saying 'No' all over the shop.

Every week another new 'Some of the GC are mental' starts and we have to point out that being GC is just being a normal run of the mill person and it doesn't make you pure and obeyant and can you just all fuck off with this fucking shit please.

There are a million other issues along the way, this is just my observations. Every day another 5 weird things happen so I've missed hundreds.

🙌

TheRozzers · 11/12/2024 21:38

From what I can see, some 'ultra' KJK fans on TwiX are wrongly accusing JCJ of being a Nazi and a paedophile.

The few times I have met JCJ she has expressed left wing political views and has spoken passionately about single sex support for rape victim-survivors.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2024 21:41

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/12/2024 15:52

Football in No Man's Land? The latter being rather appropriately named ...

Haha Grin

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 22:03

@AlisonDonut You did paraphrase. KJK said far more than girls should not wear burkhas. Womens Place UK have been explicit that they withdrew the invite to speak because of the tweets below.

AlisonDonut · 11/12/2024 22:21

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 22:03

@AlisonDonut You did paraphrase. KJK said far more than girls should not wear burkhas. Womens Place UK have been explicit that they withdrew the invite to speak because of the tweets below.

I put a link to the statement which includes the tweets they are referring to. I don't know where below is, below what?

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 22:27

I had copy and pasted them, but they have not posted.
The tweets are about more than burkhas. She explicitly says that Pakistani Muslim culture is not British and is a rape culture.

Mmmnotsure · 11/12/2024 22:43

@Floisme
"I've no idea whether or not it was a fair summary / interpretation of what JCJ had written because quite frankly I'm 68 and life feels too short now to read JCJ." 😄

And others.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 11/12/2024 22:50

life feels too short now to read JCJ

It's like painting the Forth Bridge. Only last night she said she was might write another essay. Lord spare us.

"I am considering writing an essay called ‘Pronouns are a Glass and a Half of Wine.’

Because I think a lot of harm might have been done by claiming they were like a date rape drug"

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1866638316462018623?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

AlisonDonut · 11/12/2024 22:53

So now she is going after Barra Kerr? Of course she is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2024 22:54

🙄

CoalTit · 11/12/2024 22:55

These people exist, yes, and many have had irreversible medical treatment. If I ruled the world we would stop using the word 'transition' to refer to this and to cross-dressing and similar behaviours. It's misleading. Nobody can change sex. It's unkind to lead anyone to believe that they can even get close.
This needs to be said again and again, except I wouldn't refer to the drugs and surgery in question as medical treatment but as sadistic experiments.

LoobiJee · 11/12/2024 23:18

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 20:03

@OhBuggerandArse Thanks.
The position where we pretend transitioned people do not exist because sex is real, is simply not practical. And parliament would never support it.
Sex is real. But people have had surgery and taken hormones. These people exist.

Having chosen to have silicon implants or Adam’s apple removal does not give a male person a lifelong entitlement to demand the removal of single sex intimate hygiene facilities from women and girls, nor to demand the removal of single sex sports from women and girls, nor to demand the removal of single sex prisons, hospital wards, rape crisis centres and refuges from women and girls, nor do silicon implants and hormones give a male a lifelong entitlement to access women and girls in a state of undress.

Other males need to start being welcoming and inclusive of males who’ve had silicon implants or other surgery or taken hormones.

DrSpartacular · 11/12/2024 23:41

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 11/12/2024 22:50

life feels too short now to read JCJ

It's like painting the Forth Bridge. Only last night she said she was might write another essay. Lord spare us.

"I am considering writing an essay called ‘Pronouns are a Glass and a Half of Wine.’

Because I think a lot of harm might have been done by claiming they were like a date rape drug"

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1866638316462018623?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

She's showing how she just doesn't get it.

She doesn't get safeguarding or risk or MVAWG at all.

Or she wishes she could write as eloquently, concisely and accessibly as Barra Kerr...

She talks a lot about ontology yet can't see the existential threat to women and girls.

AlisonDonut · 11/12/2024 23:44

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 22:27

I had copy and pasted them, but they have not posted.
The tweets are about more than burkhas. She explicitly says that Pakistani Muslim culture is not British and is a rape culture.

That's literally the argument. That men who force girls to wear burhas won't be able to stop themselves from raping girls. And the clue about Pakistani men not being British is in the word Pakistani. Otherwise the descriptor would be British.

I'm really not sure what point you are making.

CandyMaker · 11/12/2024 23:50

AlisonDonut · 11/12/2024 23:44

That's literally the argument. That men who force girls to wear burhas won't be able to stop themselves from raping girls. And the clue about Pakistani men not being British is in the word Pakistani. Otherwise the descriptor would be British.

I'm really not sure what point you are making.

The tweets were racist.

WagnersFourthSymphony · 11/12/2024 23:53

Well, it’s not an argument is it. It’s straight out racism. Pakistani men or Muslim men are no more the Borg than GC women are. Men who force women to wear the burkha are the problem.

It’s this sort of comment that makes people want to distance themselves from KJK. She’s on the button about a lot of things, but this racism is toxic.