big argument with old friend

[ramenmonster]

Met up with old male (gay) friend and he raised the trans thing. He denied biological reality of two sexes, and told me lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women. That men should be allowed in women's bathrooms, in women's sports, prisons. That the biological differences between XX and XY make no difference and those men participating in sports are "real women".

I asked him why it was always men who are telling what women should and shouldn't accept, why men are always the ones who tell us we have to "deal with it" and that apparently helping trans people is more important than women (despite us being the weaker sex and 50% of the population).

After some of the things he said I'm now wondering if he's really just a massive misogynist with no clue about actual women's issues. I'm not sure where our friendship can go from here.

Just venting and asking for some solidarity.

Did you ask him what being gay meant to him then? If there’s no biological difference then how can he be gay?

Did you ask him whether he'd be prepared to have sex with a trans man and if not why not?

How can he be same sex attracted then?

If there’s no difference between us then what is trans, what are they transitioning from/to?

Solidarity. I had similar with a gay male friend of mine. He was talking to me and another woman friend and he did not get our gender critical points AT ALL. Couldn't see past 'all the transphobia'. When we told him about women's experience of always being vigilant, always risk assessing when out in public, needing female only spaces for safety and dignity, he was absolutely horrified that we were being so MEAN about men 🙄

I was so disappointed in him, and I don't feel the same about him as a friend tbh

to be honest I wasn't expecting the debate to pop up, and was surprised by the depth of the misogyny of his arguments and didn't even think to ask about the gay thing / trans thing. I will be prepared next time if it pops up! However it was a bit of a debate I got the impression he now thinks I am a raving bigot / transphobe :(

I did try to educate him a bit with some of the reasons women feel unsafe about sharing facilities and sport, and misogyny in general.

did you ask him how many trans men he's boinked? and if not why not

You made good points. He believes different and is a misogynist. I would sack him off as a friend, tbh?

I think that's it really. I'm not anti trans rights, I just don't want them at the expense of women's rights and safe spaces, which are there for a good reason. Denying the reality of biological sex was just wild to me and completely unexpected.

It's hard that the issue is so divisive and polarised :(

told me lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women

That's hilarious! He's gullible with no critical thinking skills?

Or just incredibly dishonest? I don't think anyone who understands how babies are made could come out with this and expect to be taken seriously! (I assume he is on the pill if he doesn't want babies?)

@popeydokey I know. I just didn't understand at all why he would say that!?

That the biological differences between XX and XY make no difference

So he acknowledges that xx is different from xy biologically, or not? Has he managed to contradict himself within two sentences?

The thing about this is that it's so stupid it's just exhausting to reason with. Would you spend your evening arguing with someone who thinks that the earth is flat? That Bill Gates is controlling us through microchips placed in the Covid vaccine? That the world is secretly controlled by mice? Seriously, is there any point? Either your friend is terminally stupid or he knows he's talking rubbish but is motivated to do so through either cowardice or misogyny.

There's a quote from Jane Austen that springs to mind in these situations, in which Elinor Dashwood has to listen to an idiot ranting on: “Elinor agreed to it all, for she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition.”

@popeydokey he kind of glossed over my arguments saying that doctors would disagree with me. I think he thinks a person is a 100% woman if they feel like one, rather than biology being relevant, and lots of doctors / science is coming around to that point. I was honestly a bit baffled.

Solidarity a-plenty, ramenmonste. There's no sugar-coating it: your friend revealed a degree of misogyny which must have been lurking when you thought he was a good friend. Now it's out in the open, and he's not a good friend, and that's hard to take, it's sad to lose a friend like that.

There's a possibility that he's just easily-led and has absorbed all this TWAW/most marginalised/literal genocide stuff because that's what he hears around him, and there's a possibility he'll go away and think deeply about what you said and realise that women in general, and you his friend in particular, deserve better..

But that's a fairy-tale ending, I'm afraid you may have lost a friend who turned out to be not what you believed he was. That's sad and difficult, regardless of the politics, so

“He denied biological reality of two sexes, and told me lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women.”

In other words, he’s so deeply committed to men being the boss of women, and to women shutting up and doing as they’re told by bullying men, that he’s prepared to show himself up either as an utter fool or a shameless liar or both.

Given that he claims to believe that there isn’t any form of biological reality differentiating the two sexes, has he and his boyfriend/husband decided which one of them is going to impregnate the other and which one of them is going to be impregnated when they decide to become parents then? Course not. He knows biological sex is real, but he’s prepared to lie about that to keep women in what he’s sees as their place.

He’s just a male supremacist bully. Not a friend.

@RoyalCorgi exactly. The thing was he was coming from a place of real concern about trans people, their struggle and what they are going through in the media at the moment, which I don't entirely disagree with. I think he feels genuinely on the right side on this issue and empathetic etc.

Alongside concern for women, I also have concern for trans people's wellbeing and safety and hate how polarised the argument has become.

That said we can't paper over women's rights.

He's a nice guy usually but I felt I was now being put into a box labelled "bigot" when I tried to explain :(

How old is he?
I'd accept this sort of stuff from a teenager, because let's be fair their brain hasn't fully developed yet.

There is no logic. Makes it impossible to argue logically.

One TW crowed to me about being ‘biologically stronger’ without the slightest recognition that this acknowledgement of reality removes any TWAW claim. When trying to point out the contradictions between the two claims, I was met with a word salad of gender souls woo.

He's just a common misogynist, OP. None of it affects him, he doesn't give a crap about the female half of the species and I'd go as far as to say he likely doesn't see females as fully human, what with our holes not appealing to him.
It's quite predictable.

I think the problem with men, when trying to explain the gender critical position, is that you have to highlight how men can be a problem for women. That's why transwomen can be a problem for women.

It really gets their backs up -
What do you mean? Men, like my perfect self, you don't trust people like me in your private space? Really why not?

And you have to go right back to the basics with them and tie yourself in painful knots "yes if you have a penis you're, y'know - different to us not that you personally are a threat in anyway you know I love you and I have sons of my own and etc etc but even still, y'know... TW are different to women in the same way men are...

It's misogyny in spades. "Why should women need spaces away from men? I just can't possibly comprehend?"

I'd give him a wide birth for the time being.

The thing is I started to wonder if I was being bigoted, the arguments are just so weird, it felt a bit like gaslighting. (Is that a thing some people go through when they have arguments like this?).

It's IS gaslighting, OP.

Men, especially good men who would naturally never hurt anyone, find it incredibly uncomfortable when faced with the reality that the sex class they're part of is so problematic that women fantasise about men having a curfew, just so we can go for a bloody walk after dark.

It's painful. It distresses my DH a great deal. He feels powerless to change it, so sometimes, tells me I'm being over-cautious, that I'm over-reacting, etc.

Telling you you're imagining things means he doesn't have to look ugly masculinity and ugly male sexual behaviour in the face.

I had similar with an old friend ( gay male) although it was just before the General Election and he said the Women's Party were a bunch of bigots. I didn't know anything about them but looked up their beliefs - no men in women's spaces etc. I agreed with every one of the points it made. I know that friend has a Trans pal (M to F). So I decided to just let it lie for now and not challenge him, because I don't want to fall out with him, but I will if he asks me directly and he is prepared to listen. Sometimes you have to accept that people have different views.

@ramenmonster being stupid here but if everyone was gay, the world population would die out! men would not become fathers and women would not become mothers. they will always need the opposite sex whether for natural sex or test tube/ivf etc

I asked a TRA gay friend this once and he said he would, because "transmen are men".
I said I'd really believe that he believed it when he had a female who identifies as a man as a boyfriend.
He hung up and we've never spoken since.
In hindsight he was a raving misogynist, I just hadn't seen it.

“It's hard that the issue is so divisive and polarised :(”

It’s devastating, OP. You absolutely have my solidarity. I have experienced similar from a dearly loved family member and it’s incredibly painful. My family member is female, so it’s not misogyny from her, I don’t think. I think it’s being close to people who have transitioned, along with strong feelings from a remembered difficult childhood, where feeling very different and feeling the need to hide such a big part of yourself makes my relative ready to empathize with someone she has been persuaded is going through the same thing. I think I have seen som gay men doing the same, though their empathy is more often for other men.

One thing I will say is that, while I absolutely separate out “transactivism” from “people who are transitioning” (and especially the young) those looking at us do not perceive that divide. I criticize transactivists on social media and my relative sees it as criticizing trans people and has been so brainwashed by transactivism that she can’t actually perceive the fact that I don’t hate “those who are transitioning” while I absolutely do resent and am angry with “men who are forcing themselves into women’s spaces”.

But it is incredibly painful, not least because people who should know we are kind and accepting from our actions towards them for however many years, are so ready to believe that we have suddenly become hate-filled bigots.

I would have hoped that my relative would have known me well enough to cut me a bit of slack and actually ask and try to understand, but that is exactly what transactivism is designed to counter. They can’t be allowed to listen, because if they did, they would instantly see we had a point.

I hope that, some day, this will all fall away and we can all find ways back to those friends who are worth renewing our friendship with.