WPUK statement

[RapidOnsetGenderCritic]

What should people make of this?

https://x.com/womans_place_uk/status/1862105940176060787?s=61

Many of us had been trying to talk about the dangers of the gender cult (although we didn't have that vocabulary originally) for years. The T was being added to some LGB groups I was aware of as far back as 2004 and we were facing men trying to access women's events and lesbian events from around that time. I've had several people tell me they thought I was insane when I first started talking about it as a serious issue.

Talking about the early days, as well as Venice Allen’s excellent work and the awful attack on Maria McLaughlin, I also remember an academic who gave a talk about the negative effects of gender identity ideology on women’s rights at a sceptics in the pub event that was excellent - sadly I can’t remember the woman’s name or find the video but I’m sure someone here will remember who she is.

But in the early days of 2014-17, before women in the UK were having public meetings etc, for me it was reading non-mainstream feminist blogs that helped me to understand that something was going wrong with gender identity/queer theory taking over feminism and gay rights organisations.

Rebecca Reilly-Cooper at Coventry Skeptics in the Pub? 2016?

https://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2016/critically-examining-the-doctrine-of-gender-identity/

Not to negate anything they have achieved, but they could never exist under a labour party. It was tory implemented self id that they were against, not gender ideology itself.

The reason they were so happy to include men is because they saw them as successes of the labour GRC and EqA law.

I really strugle with the idea that its self id thats wrong, and they can stand down now that threat has disappeared. Anyone who has glanced at current policies couldnt in all honesty say its not extremely close to self id anyway.

Also worth remembering how bloody dangerous this has been for women, our careers and even our basic safety. If you worked in local government, education, the NHS, anywhere you were relentlessly bullied and your careers threatened. Even now the supremacy of flashing / indecent exposure by men is promoted by the NHS & unions - just look at the Darlington nurses.
So many women terrified as they walked through howling, spitting mobs issuing death and rape threats at them - routine behaviour for the left wing misogynists emulating the great British Taliban.
I am full of admiration for every group and woman who has spoken, written, organised and resisted - even if I don't share all their political views.
It really has been "courage calls to courage"

I don't want to go out of my way to knock WPUK. Because I do genuinely believe that any push towards the end goal has its merits.

I'm just not sure they feel the same.

Julia Long, Sheila Jeffreys & Magdalen Berns!

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LESBIAN WITH A PENIS!!!!

That was the problem, wasn't it!

I haven't RTFT but I have similar views to many. Their work at the end of the 2010s and early 2020s was invaluable - I will always be grateful to have stumbled on their website and meetings at a time when I had a gut feeling the trans stuff wasn't what I thought it was and wanted to look into it more. They laid out the issues more clearly than anyone else I had seen before in my usual left of centre media bubble.

A lot of what's being held against WPUK now comes out of them being g willing to make space to explore the argument by inviting people who were willing to talk about the "clash of rights."

I still think that was the right thing to do, even if my own views have firmed over time.

Nah, quite the opposite but I'm glad it's cleared up that I CAN share my opinions freely on say the American election, or negative views on other ways of approaching the 'GC' fight, on mumsnet - twitter is quite the opposite:(y Maybe I should spend more time here, less on twitter!

Tara Wolf assaulting MM was my final straw on believing there could be any 'middle ground' - men attacking women, great representation of the last 8 (well, and before of course!) years

YES!!!! Thank you for that, I just had a complete blank on her name for some reason.

I think this is fair.

It's all well and good to say that platforming men was wrong, but there was a significant disagreements in society around the issue, around what gender actual is and what it means to people. Part of the problem with the idea that rights had to be balanced was that people had a very unclear idea what "trans rights" should even mean.

Within feminism there was a lot of questioning around what it meant to allow people to present in really gender non-conforming ways, and whether that could extend to more than clothing choices.

In cases like this the way forward is very often going to involve hearing what the "other side" has to say, and the way to do this with integrity is to allow them to present it themselves and to engage with them. That doesn't mean rolling over or agreeing, but it's a necessary step in a social movement like this. And not doing this can result in some serious errors.

A lot of the complaints GC people have had with progressives involve not being allowed the space for that kind of discussion, and I think a good general principle in a movement is don't refuse others the consideration you ask for yourselves.

In the end, if an ideology or individual is truly dodgy, allowing them to speak almost always reveals that.

It is certainly true that groups should have speakers on panels that represent as many different views possible. It allows, over time, a greater depth of exploration to occur so people listening can be better informed. Obviously, this can then take longer to cover the breadth of topics that need to be covered than an intensive discussion where only aligned opinions are presented. So a balance for a single event needs to be struck.

And it should go without saying, of course, if an organiser does allow speakers who they don’t agree with on many issues, or any, the organisers should not be considered ‘aligned’ with those speakers and vice versa.

I keep wondering why they'd call off the campaign now, with Labour in government and committed to reforming the GRA. I'm afraid I'm apprehensive about some of the possible reasons.

I can only assume that they're both tired but also think others are doing their job. I.e. sex matters.

The conversation is happening but still barely happening in unions, such as PCS.

I can only assume that they're both tired but also think others are doing their job. I.e. sex matters.
I think that would explain individuals stepping down but I don't think it explains the statement they've made.

Exactly how I feel.

It still baffles me that they allowed hayton speak for their cause - the cause against self id, when he self id his way into forcing school children calling him 'miss'.

It makes absolutely no sense.

Apparently Harrison's talk at a WPUK meeting in Hastings "remains the second most popular of all the talks on the WPUK YouTube channel, with an astounding 23,000 views (most of the talks garner around two or three thousand views)."

As a demonstration of the issues go, it's pretty stark.

https://lesbianalliance.org.uk/feminism/a-meaningful-transition/

"Apparently Harrison's talk at a WPUK meeting in Hastings "remains the second most popular of all the talks on the WPUK YouTube channel, with an astounding 23,000 views (most of the talks garner around two or three thousand views)."

Got to watch it now 😬

see !! 🤣. Read the link I posted, for balance

I think it's morbid curiosity, I must say I spot men all the time dressed as women or on hearing their voice, but with no reference points in the video his voice would have convinced me he was a woman.

Anyway, I thoroughly agree with the utterly gorgeous Julia Long.

I think it's understandable why they got such men involved, I can remember Miranda Yardley being praised here a lot. I guess they did it as a defence against accusations of bigotry, "see, we're fine with this one".

He's obviously a master manipulator to have a 10+ year relationship with an "avowed" lesbian.

The dynamics of how it all plays out is fascinating. Obviously the women of WPUK weren't trying to undermine their own case, they would probably argue they were successful as even that compromised position was not tolerated by TRAs.

On TwiX there have been some obscure suggestions that a couple of the directors of WPUK had made anti-Semitic statements. No idea if this is true, but I've certainly seen a couple of small local groups I'm part of split over this issue.

@Hellofabore said:
And it should go without saying, of course, if an organiser does allow speakers who they don’t agree with on many issues, or any, the organisers should not be considered ‘aligned’ with those speakers and vice versa.

Ah, the irony!