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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

WPUK statement

149 replies

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 28/11/2024 12:12

What should people make of this?

https://x.com/womans_place_uk/status/1862105940176060787?s=61

x.com

https://x.com/womans_place_uk/status/1862105940176060787?s=61

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12
IwantToRetire · 29/11/2024 00:06

I am not being mean, but for the sake of accuracy there were already many women's groups, activists doing what WPUK started to do.

And without raking over old coals, more that a few thought there approach was very much try and take the momentum away from more radical women.

What would be interesting to know is how for some of FWR WPUK seems to be the first group they became aware of in organising.

By the way I have always thought that a campaign that can have both a moderate broad based section and a more radical one will be sucessful.

But only if they can work together, not compete for "leadership".

And there have been more than a few occassion when WPUK have been more interested is bad mouthing women from the platform.

And this if your not with us you are against us, has very badly created false labelling of other women.

They can never be forgiven for doing that. But unfortunatley is so typical of the left. And of course has given all the usual suspects, that "terfs are all funded by right wing chritians fundamentalist" validation. A myth they were trying to peddle with the aid of Actual Gender Critical Left up until a few months ago.

And it may even by seen in terms of the history of this era of women's organising that far from facilitating moving forward as women with shared concerns' they just help fuel the them and us narrative, that appears most days of FWR. And has been so destructive.

And in the architypal way that only the left can do, they attempted to rebrand radical feminism as some sort of strand of the male left.

Their conference stated to be about Women's Liberation had about as much to do with Women's Liberation as bad Hollywood script.

The speech that Selina Todd gave at the London meeting was great.

But also hilarious.

Because she was allowed to say from a platform as socialst feminist academic historian, what in fact women activists (many of whom were present at the meeting) hadn't been allowed to say in the 70s because socialists feminist opposed them.

ie when all smartened up in academic language as an interesting history it is acceptable. But many of the facts in that reworking of history failed to point out that it was the organised left who were undermining women's self organising. eg NCCL, now Liberty saying it was against basic human rights for women's groups not to include men!

It such a reflection of, I was going to saying British but in fact, English society that even in feminist politics, if you are an academic you can say things and others will nod in quiet agreement, but if someone who is genuinely grass roots says it, they just get ignored.

IwantToRetire · 29/11/2024 00:11

I didn't come back to this thread to write the previous post, but was genuinely surprised by how many women thought WPUK was the start of the GC fight back.

But what I did come to post, and had intended it to be well there are 2 sides to every story, so I suppose it is worth remembering the public rejection of KJK by WPUK

A woman's place promoting fetishists is thankfully over.

And as far as I know LWS is still going and has given a voice to more women, in a far wider regpresentation of women in the country.

sweetsardineface · 29/11/2024 00:45

They were incredibly brave women and they made us a lot of us braver too. If any of you are reading this: thank you.

sweetsardineface · 29/11/2024 00:53

I’d love to hear Kathleen Stock’s response to the idea that ‘if you are an academic you can say things and others will nod in quiet agreement’. Do you have any idea how badly bullied, isolated and abused GC academic women have been?

UtopiaPlanitia · 29/11/2024 02:11

IwantToRetire · 29/11/2024 00:11

I didn't come back to this thread to write the previous post, but was genuinely surprised by how many women thought WPUK was the start of the GC fight back.

But what I did come to post, and had intended it to be well there are 2 sides to every story, so I suppose it is worth remembering the public rejection of KJK by WPUK

A woman's place promoting fetishists is thankfully over.

And as far as I know LWS is still going and has given a voice to more women, in a far wider regpresentation of women in the country.

Given the way WPUK treated her, I can understand KJK’s anger.

And I would also agree with you that the formation of Let Women Speak (and other grass roots groups) has been wonderfully consciousness raising (and motivating) for women who wouldn’t necessarily want to be involved in TU or political party spaces but who do want to speak about/lobby against the effects of sexist legislation on their lives. And LWS has gone international in a way that the other women’s groups haven’t always managed which has been a way for Terf Island to help women in other countries to kickstart, and gain attention for, their homegrown activism.

And, I am aligned with the goal of repealing GRA 2004, and ensuring EA 2010 recognises sex as biological sex, so I lost interest in WPUK’s middle of the road version of ‘GC’ activism (that included Hayton and Harrison) years ago.

I think the UK is very lucky to have a wide range of groups tackling the various issues of sexist gender identity ideology-based legislation and policy. There’s potentially a form of activism for every taste.

ArabellaScott · 29/11/2024 06:33

The whole political and social landscape has changed over the past few years, and continues to change rapidly. So groups will either adapt or disband in response.

It's all so fast. And it's interesting to watch how groups form and change.

AlisonDonut · 29/11/2024 08:01

They did give us a place to go and meet other like minded women.

But it was very much on their terms. I remember asking a question about Risk Assessment and Safeguarding at one of their events and they said that it 'was a tick box exercise' and not important. Blew my mind.

They cannot possibly ever criticise the Labour Party though. So there was no option but to give up whilst they are in power. Because that is the only thing they can see. Such a huge blindspot. I mean, they could have pivoted and campaigned for not wanting women to freeze to death [a woman's place is next to a space heater], or to be euthanised because her family don't want to pay for a care home [a woman's place is in a home not a morgue]?

How you can look at the Labour Party as it is and say 'Nah we're done' is pretty amazing but there you go.

Shortshriftandlethal · 29/11/2024 08:16

There are many people who simply cannot bear to be critical of the current Labour government, because they had invested in it such high hopes. They are remarkably quiet on many of the recent policies and announcements.

I guess that is what comes to pass if you align yourself so closely with any one group. In order to preserve the commitment or faith, you then have to, either, double down even further ( and in doing so find yourself justifying the previously unjustifiable) or find a new object of hate with which to distract yourself.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2024 08:29

That's the end of a wee era.

Women's Place were hugely important getting the conversations going a few years back, and their website has some great resources on it.

Yes, I agree, whatever I feel about some of their later actions (anyone can see by looking at my posting history). The earlier meetings happened at a time when very few groups were doing anything. I appreciate what they did at that time, and how they provided a great place to meet likeminded women, many of whom I'm still in touch with.

For all the reasons people have mentioned, I think the time is right for them to bow out.

EmpressaurusKitty · 29/11/2024 08:33

The Bloomsbury meeting? Weren’t we sitting with Datun, Eresh?

Although I think the first meeting about all this was the one that Venice Allen organised in 2017, which was when a TRA beat Maria MacLachlan up at Speakers Corner, & they surrounded the (backup) venue with shouts of BURN IT DOWN. I remember someone pointing out important people to me (that’s Janice Turner, that’s PencilsInSpace) & the police escorting us out after.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2024 08:33

It's worth remembering how we weren't all utterly disillusioned with Labour at the beginning, too. I was a Labour member at the time of Speakers Corner in late 2017. By the middle of the next year I had left the party.

AlisonDonut · 29/11/2024 08:45

I was also a Labour Party member at the time.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2024 08:53

Although I think the first meeting about all this was the one that Venice Allen organised in 2017, which was when a TRA beat Maria MacLachlan up at Speakers Corner, & they surrounded the (backup) venue with shouts of BURN IT DOWN. I remember someone pointing out important people to me (that’s Janice Turner, that’s PencilsInSpace) & the police escorting us out after.

It was indeed, and I was there too. It was scary. Venice and a small group of women were the organisers, the other women became the shortlived group Mayday 4 Women.

Venice went on alone with We Need to Talk, organising a few events, notably the Bristol Jam Jar event which was aggressively protested by TRAs, the York event where Linda Bellos spoke and she and Venice were reported to the police and taken to court by a TRA, and the Houses of Parliament event after Millwall FC lost their nerve after being harangued and threatened by TRAs, then she teamed up with KJK and the rest is history.

A great interview with Venice.

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/09/24/interview-irrepressible-venice-allan-fight-changes-uk-gender-recognition-act/

sweetsardineface · 29/11/2024 09:05

WPUK have been hugely critical of Labour. How could they not have been? They tend to be in the left of the LP so I very much doubt that they’re pleased with this Labour Party. They have tried to change the LP’s culture from within, just as other groups have done in the Greens, LDs and the CP. And they absolutely did not align with Hayton et al. That’s just nonsense.

The first meetings I remember were organised by Man Friday I think, but I can’t remember what year.

LoobiJee · 29/11/2024 09:13

“The first meetings I remember were organised by Man Friday I think, but I can’t remember what year.“

The swimming protest! I was in awe of those women.

My takeaway from this thread’s trip down memory lane:

So many brave women, doing their best, from whatever starting point they came from. We should celebrate them all.

RethinkingLife · 29/11/2024 09:19

Appalonia · 28/11/2024 18:26

Yes, I couldn't remember if it was 2017 or 2018, it feels so long ago! But it was the first real life meeting I'd gone to, was v nervous, after seeing the horrendous footage of TRA s violently protesting women meeting, and I arranged to meet women I didn't know in the pub beforehand, through Mumsnet, noone knew where the meeting was happening until a short while before, it was v cloak and daggers back then! But exhilarating. What was your experience of that meeting?

Another one who was there, 2019. So much energy in the room and it felt absurdly subversive for us to be able to just meet.

https://womansplaceuk.org/2019/05/21/inspired-motivated-and-ready-to-speak-out/

Inspired, motivated, and ready to speak out - Woman's Place UK

Violence against women and sex discrimination still exist. Women need reserved places, separate spaces and distinct services.

https://womansplaceuk.org/2019/05/21/inspired-motivated-and-ready-to-speak-out

OldCrone · 29/11/2024 09:23

And they absolutely did not align with Hayton et al. That’s just nonsense.

Debbie Hayton spoke at three meetings. Kristina Harrison (another male) also spoke at three meetings.

A record of the meetings organised by WPUK

https://womansplaceuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/A-record-of-the-meetings-organised-by-WPUK.pdf

OldCrone · 29/11/2024 09:38

I am aligned with the goal of repealing GRA 2004, and ensuring EA 2010 recognises sex as biological sex, so I lost interest in WPUK’s middle of the road version of ‘GC’ activism (that included Hayton and Harrison) years ago.

That's exactly my position. Having just checked the link I posted, Hayton and Harrison spoke at meetings in 2018, Harrison at their second meeting, so very early on. I watched some of these and they made me very uncomfortable. I felt something was very 'off' about a group which welcomed as speakers (on several occasions) men pretending to be women, who were just the sort of people the organisation was supposed to be opposing. I never understood the reasons for inviting them.

sweetsardineface · 29/11/2024 09:39

Thanks, I didn’t realise. I don’t know but suspect that they deeply regret that now. I think there was a level of tolerance for him in the early days when so few people were supporters.

ArabellaScott · 29/11/2024 09:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2024 08:53

Although I think the first meeting about all this was the one that Venice Allen organised in 2017, which was when a TRA beat Maria MacLachlan up at Speakers Corner, & they surrounded the (backup) venue with shouts of BURN IT DOWN. I remember someone pointing out important people to me (that’s Janice Turner, that’s PencilsInSpace) & the police escorting us out after.

It was indeed, and I was there too. It was scary. Venice and a small group of women were the organisers, the other women became the shortlived group Mayday 4 Women.

Venice went on alone with We Need to Talk, organising a few events, notably the Bristol Jam Jar event which was aggressively protested by TRAs, the York event where Linda Bellos spoke and she and Venice were reported to the police and taken to court by a TRA, and the Houses of Parliament event after Millwall FC lost their nerve after being harangued and threatened by TRAs, then she teamed up with KJK and the rest is history.

A great interview with Venice.

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/09/24/interview-irrepressible-venice-allan-fight-changes-uk-gender-recognition-act/

So many brave and brilliant women have done so much, and often at great personal cost.

I'm grateful to them all, even the ones I disagree with on some issues. I've said it before but i do think the diversity of views has long been a strength, not a weakness, of the women's movement.

Even the bunfights can be sometimes necessary and healthy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2024 09:46

Debbie Hayton spoke at three meetings. Kristina Harrison (another male) also spoke at three meetings.

Yes and WPUK organisers told off anyone who pointed out that they were male. I remember Dr Julia Long getting shamed for it in a London meeting (not that she was that bothered I think).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2024 09:47

So many brave and brilliant women have done so much, and often at great personal cost.

I'm grateful to them all, even the ones I disagree with on some issues. I've said it before but i do think the diversity of views has long been a strength, not a weakness, of the women's movement.

Even the bunfights can be sometimes necessary and healthy.

This.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/11/2024 09:52

ArabellaScott · 29/11/2024 09:45

So many brave and brilliant women have done so much, and often at great personal cost.

I'm grateful to them all, even the ones I disagree with on some issues. I've said it before but i do think the diversity of views has long been a strength, not a weakness, of the women's movement.

Even the bunfights can be sometimes necessary and healthy.

Spot on. It's transactivism that used the #nodebate mantra. And now they've been found out, their house of cards is collapsing with some speed.

Our strength is in our diversity and ability to accommodate each other, despite divergent political views.

RethinkingLife · 29/11/2024 10:07

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2024 09:46

Debbie Hayton spoke at three meetings. Kristina Harrison (another male) also spoke at three meetings.

Yes and WPUK organisers told off anyone who pointed out that they were male. I remember Dr Julia Long getting shamed for it in a London meeting (not that she was that bothered I think).

I was just trying to think which meeting it was where Julia Long called that from the gallery(?)!

Arabella - I've said it before but i do think the diversity of views has long been a strength, not a weakness, of the women's movement.

Strongly agree, Arabella. This comes up in several parts of the recent Heretics where Gold speaks to Andrew Doyle. It's a wide-ranging chat but I like the Doyle's discussion of Orwell's essays and the difficulty Orwell had in finding a publisher for Animal Farm - both of these in the context of fascism and polarities of left and right having largely lost any agreed meaning. Doyle is particularly interesting when he discusses Mussolini and Gentile's 'The Doctrine of Fascism'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/11/2024 10:10

Early 2018 I think @RethinkingLife