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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland in Supreme Court - thread 3

446 replies

nauticant · 28/11/2024 11:13

The proceedings in the Supreme Court took place on 26 and 27 November 2024.

Previous threads discussing the proceedings:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5182666-for-women-scotland-heading-for-supreme-court

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5218934-for-women-scotland-in-supreme-court-thread-2

The video of the proceedings over 2 days in 4 sessions can be found here:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
BonfireLady · 30/11/2024 13:33

IDareSay · 30/11/2024 13:19

Yes and let's be clear, that isn't a codpiece it's a strap-on dildo...

Fair point.

I was choosing my words as carefully as I could when posting. TBF, I think it still fits the description of a modern day codpiece:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece#:~:text=A%20codpiece%20(from%20Middle%20English,protective%20gear%20for%20male%20athletes.

I guess it's the "here's one I made earlier" version for the time-pressed fashion fan 😁

(Also, just to add again.... yep, I'm still me. I still support the right for people to believe that "we all have a gender identity" and I still mostly avoid using any third person pronouns at all for TW and TM. And I still care very much about people who believe that they have a gender identity and feel distress that theirs doesn't match their body. I just have no patience with a) people flying in from Spain to declare who they are and b) anyone (frequent flyer, distressed person, ally etc) forcing their belief as fact in law, education, healthcare, sport etc. This case is the perfect way to demonstrate how inappropriate this enforced belief is when it comes to the law).

Codpiece - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece#:~:text=A%20codpiece%20(from%20Middle%20English,protective%20gear%20for%20male%20athletes.

biddyboo · 30/11/2024 13:53

Datun · 30/11/2024 12:25

Airport code for Malaga is AGP. Which also stands for autogynephile.

People were getting targeted for using the word autogynephile, or the acronym, so they found a coded way to say it.

Ah of course, thank you

GailBlancheViola · 30/11/2024 14:01

MovingCrib · 30/11/2024 13:30

Jeez, becoming a lesbian is now a stocking filler

Idea for a Secret Santa gift?

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2024 14:04

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2024/11/scottish-government-is-ignoring-womens-rights?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1732971762

I confess I have not read the thread yesterday so apologies if this has already been posted.

Hannah Barnes New Statesman

On Tuesday 27 and Wednesday 28 November, the highest court in the land listened to arguments on how to answer a question that would, I think, seem extraordinary to most people: what is a woman? That we have got to this point makes a mockery of the Labour Party’s insistence, during the general election campaign, that the law is clear when it comes to the definition of sex.

Two things stood out as I followed the case on day two: that women (in Scotland in particular), were being gaslit by the Scottish government; and lesbians were, in effect, being told by the Scottish government that they were no longer protected in law according to their sexual orientation. By virtue of a legal piece of paper, it was argued, a “heterosexual male” could become a lesbian woman overnight. These were the words of Scottish government lawyers.

And

Having spent two years dismissing women’s concerns over the Gender Recognition Reform Bill – arguing that a GRC had no impact on the Equality Act or other people; that it was “just a piece of paper” that afforded trans people the dignity of having their births, marriages and deaths being recorded as their chosen gender – the Scottish government spent 27 November arguing precisely the opposite. “You had their lawyers in court using the words “far-reaching” more times than I could count”, Lucy Hunter Blackburn, from policy analysts Murray Blackburn Mackenzie, told me.

And

Take just one example: in 2020, the Forensic Medical Services Bill proposed by the Scottish government was amended to explicitly state that survivors of rape and sexual assaults should be able to choose the sex – as opposed to gender – of the person examining them after an attack. The then Labour MSP Johann Lamont brought this amendment, which initially faced SNP opposition. “It’s quite clear that when that bill was going through, everybody knew what sex meant at this point,” Hunter Blackburn argues. “Yet now the Scottish government seems to be saying that everything that was done around that bill – which was a huge, huge political storm in Scotland – was a lie. They are burning everything to the ground to win this case.”

And

Crawford confirmed to the court that a lesbian association of 25 members or more would not be able to restrict membership to those who are born female. Natal males – in the language of the court, meaning those born male – with a GRC who were attracted to females could not be refused entry. The only way for these trans women to be excluded would be to regroup as an association which seeks to advance a protected philosophical belief: in this instance, the gender-critical belief that sex is immutable. Those inside the court building have reported “audible intakes of breath”. Under this scenario, lesbians were no longer lesbians but rather, as the academic Jo Phoenix put it, “gender-critical women attracted to other gender-critical women”: this was sexual orientation being replaced by “belief orientation”.

The Scottish government is ignoring women’s rights

A hearing at the Supreme Court exposed just how flawed its position on gender recognition is.

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2024/11/scottish-government-is-ignoring-womens-rights#Echobox=1732971762

Szygy · 30/11/2024 14:29

ellenback21 · 30/11/2024 12:33

Obvs I'm hoping case goes in FWS's favour. However, if it goes in SG's favour then I really hope there will be lots more coverage at that point. All my friends have an opinion on assisted dying and are happy to voice it becaue the pros and cons have been well-aired. But I hit a blank wall when trying to discuss GI because it rarely comes up in MSM and when it does it is hard to unpick the reporting because of pronoun confusion/ bias/ shape-shifting words.

I was very struck yesterday by the news coverage - there was an (appropriately-solemn) summing-up of the Assisted Dying vote and it was couched as something ranking alongside other seismic parliamentary decisions such as abortion rights, legalisation of homosexuality and so on. No mention of course of the Act that decreed men could become women and women could become men (oh, apart from primogeniture, ha!) which is arguably one of the most jaw-dropping and fundamental ever passed, and has left us in the current crazy situation. But as you say, @ellenback21, nobody much wants to talk about that, do they? Well, apart from us….

legalalien · 30/11/2024 14:39

WorthyTraybake · 28/11/2024 15:52

Off work this afternoon and catching up - thank you all for the commentary and links.
Off topic: I'm going to have to Google the case about discrimination related to the height of lamp posts - did I hear that properly?

I haven't watched the whole thing but I wonder if this might have been a reference to light and lampposts ie the thing where the drunk guy looks for his keys under the street light because that's where it's light, rather than in the dark place where he actually lost them - think it's called streetlight effect or something? Lots of aspects of the submissions where I felt like I was floundering around in the dark, anyway!

OvaHere · 30/11/2024 14:59

Szygy · 30/11/2024 14:29

I was very struck yesterday by the news coverage - there was an (appropriately-solemn) summing-up of the Assisted Dying vote and it was couched as something ranking alongside other seismic parliamentary decisions such as abortion rights, legalisation of homosexuality and so on. No mention of course of the Act that decreed men could become women and women could become men (oh, apart from primogeniture, ha!) which is arguably one of the most jaw-dropping and fundamental ever passed, and has left us in the current crazy situation. But as you say, @ellenback21, nobody much wants to talk about that, do they? Well, apart from us….

The GRA is precisely why I have reservations about the AD Bill and its future. I have more respect for parliament if they could admit they hugely fucked up with it and do a lessons learned before introducing other seismic legislation.

ellenback21 · 30/11/2024 14:59

Szygy · 30/11/2024 14:29

I was very struck yesterday by the news coverage - there was an (appropriately-solemn) summing-up of the Assisted Dying vote and it was couched as something ranking alongside other seismic parliamentary decisions such as abortion rights, legalisation of homosexuality and so on. No mention of course of the Act that decreed men could become women and women could become men (oh, apart from primogeniture, ha!) which is arguably one of the most jaw-dropping and fundamental ever passed, and has left us in the current crazy situation. But as you say, @ellenback21, nobody much wants to talk about that, do they? Well, apart from us….

Agreed. I also think people with opinions on either side of the assisted dying debate would have benefitted from an understanding of how parliament can monumentaly screw up legislation, which they would have gained with a better airing of the supreme court arguments.

ellenback21 · 30/11/2024 15:00

OvaHere · 30/11/2024 14:59

The GRA is precisely why I have reservations about the AD Bill and its future. I have more respect for parliament if they could admit they hugely fucked up with it and do a lessons learned before introducing other seismic legislation.

Snap!

NoBinturongsHereMate · 30/11/2024 21:44

legalalien · 30/11/2024 14:39

I haven't watched the whole thing but I wonder if this might have been a reference to light and lampposts ie the thing where the drunk guy looks for his keys under the street light because that's where it's light, rather than in the dark place where he actually lost them - think it's called streetlight effect or something? Lots of aspects of the submissions where I felt like I was floundering around in the dark, anyway!

No, it was a reference to a discrimination case about the height of lamposts - something Roma related, I think.

ScrollingLeaves · 30/11/2024 22:03

ellenback21 · 30/11/2024 15:00

Snap!

Snap for me too.

prh47bridge · 30/11/2024 22:33

BonfireLady · 30/11/2024 08:06

And what about safeguarding law? Has this been mentioned at all? Do male teachers with a GRC get to share with girl children on school trips?

This is an excellent question and worth repeating.

According to the SG lawyers' interpretation of the law, yes. (Obviously on a plus note, their argument would be that those without a GRC don't).

It's equal to the "men with a GRC can be lesbians, men without one can't" point for how ridiculous it is but the red flags on safeguarding are through the roof. Obviously it's bad enough that lesbians have to accept that a certificate is a gamechanger but this is about protecting children. I really hope someone delves into this when Labour is looking to streamline the GRA. Is the loophole still open where DBS checks don't refer to offences under someone's previous name?
If so, a win for the SG lawyers would ratify the playbook that already exists as good law. This playbook:

  1. commit offences against children
  2. change your name by deed poll (MtF)
  3. DBS check to work in a school - checks done on new name only
  4. apply for GRC
  5. supervise in girls' accommodation on school trips, in girls' changing rooms in PE etc....

... and the law would say this is as it should be.

If the loophole on DBS checks is now closed, anyone who has never been caught (or hasn't yet escalated past accessing online content and/or the excitement from a bit of casual boundary transgression by going into female changing rooms etc) can just start at step 2.

I'm not sure that loophole has ever existed as such. For as long as I've been doing DBS checks, applicants have been required to declare all previous names. It is, however, the case that, if an applicant lies and claims that their current name has been their name from birth, the process may not pick that up.

prh47bridge · 30/11/2024 22:39

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 09:06

And presumably men who want in to women's spaces where the women have added the PC of belief now just have to claim to literally be a woman (grc) then also to be GC. As it's a belief, it can't really be disproved and you can't use the male physique that you can literally see as a reason why they can't be GC because in the pigs ear of the law this person is literally a woman!!

It's actually a manipulator / coercive controllers dream. Blatantly lying but with the force of the law to make unconsenting women comply to 2+2= 5

One wonders how far it could go. Could a grc holder with a cock actually commit and get away with rape / indecent exposure ? They have a penis but in law they're literally a woman.

Edited

No. Whilst the law on rape refers to "he", under an 1850 Act of Parliament, "he" includes females. The law therefore does not require a rapist to be male, just that they must be in possession of a penis.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 30/11/2024 22:51

prh47bridge · 30/11/2024 22:33

I'm not sure that loophole has ever existed as such. For as long as I've been doing DBS checks, applicants have been required to declare all previous names. It is, however, the case that, if an applicant lies and claims that their current name has been their name from birth, the process may not pick that up.

Edited

If they have a GRC there is a separate, confidential process for declaring pre-GRC names. They aren't added to the usual list of previous names.

As an additional.step separated from the main process it would possibly be easier to 'forget' that part.

prh47bridge · 30/11/2024 22:51

prh47bridge · 30/11/2024 22:39

No. Whilst the law on rape refers to "he", under an 1850 Act of Parliament, "he" includes females. The law therefore does not require a rapist to be male, just that they must be in possession of a penis.

Just to clarify, the 1850 Act only means that "he" includes "she" in Acts of Parliament. It did not say that "he" includes "she" in any other context. It was about simplifying the language in Acts of Parliament.

prh47bridge · 30/11/2024 22:53

NoBinturongsHereMate · 30/11/2024 22:51

If they have a GRC there is a separate, confidential process for declaring pre-GRC names. They aren't added to the usual list of previous names.

As an additional.step separated from the main process it would possibly be easier to 'forget' that part.

I know. But, even with the normal process, if someone with a deed poll fails to disclose their birth name, I am not convinced the authorities would pick it up.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 30/11/2024 23:28

It is somewhat ironic that a safeguarding process to weed out the criminal and dishonest relies on people telling the truth on a form.

legalalien · 01/12/2024 05:53

NoBinturongsHereMate · 30/11/2024 21:44

No, it was a reference to a discrimination case about the height of lamposts - something Roma related, I think.

Could this be the lamp post thing (apologies, former PSL and get fixated on tracking things down)

https://www.justiceinitiative.org/voices/case-watch-inaccessible-electricity-meters-roma-challenged-under-eu-law

SisterFrancis · 01/12/2024 06:54

I see kjk thinks the FWS case is pointless as, according to kjk, only she can win anything that has merit. Kjk appears to believe that she will somehow repeal the GRA by shouting in parks, selling t-shirts, slagging off everyone else who has a different opinion and posting on Twitter and YouTube. Her terrible result in the elections (i don’t remember how many votes she got but i remember it was awful and much worse than her candidates?!!) doesn’t seem to have taught her anything

Datun · 01/12/2024 07:14

SisterFrancis · 01/12/2024 06:54

I see kjk thinks the FWS case is pointless as, according to kjk, only she can win anything that has merit. Kjk appears to believe that she will somehow repeal the GRA by shouting in parks, selling t-shirts, slagging off everyone else who has a different opinion and posting on Twitter and YouTube. Her terrible result in the elections (i don’t remember how many votes she got but i remember it was awful and much worse than her candidates?!!) doesn’t seem to have taught her anything

lol, is KJK still not behaving as you tell her?

SisterFrancis · 01/12/2024 07:16

Lol wrong way around, nobody is behaving the way kjk says they must and she is Not Happy About This

NoBinturongsHereMate · 01/12/2024 07:28

legalalien · 01/12/2024 05:53

Could this be the lamp post thing (apologies, former PSL and get fixated on tracking things down)

https://www.justiceinitiative.org/voices/case-watch-inaccessible-electricity-meters-roma-challenged-under-eu-law

Aha! Could well be - excellent sleuthing.

Datun · 01/12/2024 07:36

prh47bridge · 30/11/2024 22:53

I know. But, even with the normal process, if someone with a deed poll fails to disclose their birth name, I am not convinced the authorities would pick it up.

It does seem to be a major flaw in the process.

NonPlayerCharacter · 01/12/2024 07:42

SisterFrancis · 01/12/2024 06:54

I see kjk thinks the FWS case is pointless as, according to kjk, only she can win anything that has merit. Kjk appears to believe that she will somehow repeal the GRA by shouting in parks, selling t-shirts, slagging off everyone else who has a different opinion and posting on Twitter and YouTube. Her terrible result in the elections (i don’t remember how many votes she got but i remember it was awful and much worse than her candidates?!!) doesn’t seem to have taught her anything

I don't think she ever expected to get many votes, it was effectively a protest campaign to keep the issue in people's minds.

borntobequiet · 01/12/2024 08:38

I see someone disapproves of KJK.
Personally, I’m grateful to her as it means I didn’t have to spoil my ballot in June.