Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland in Supreme Court - thread 3

446 replies

nauticant · 28/11/2024 11:13

The proceedings in the Supreme Court took place on 26 and 27 November 2024.

Previous threads discussing the proceedings:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5182666-for-women-scotland-heading-for-supreme-court

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5218934-for-women-scotland-in-supreme-court-thread-2

The video of the proceedings over 2 days in 4 sessions can be found here:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
AlbertCamusflage · 30/11/2024 07:26

Fortunately, though, the Equality Act isn't abhorrent. It was established with clearly positive and humane purposes. Hopefully those clearly present purposes can help the judges to shape an interpretation of it whose practical outcomes do not run contrarily against its fundamental intents, for example by de facto unpicking a range of protections for lesbians and for women.

MarjorieDanvers · 30/11/2024 07:55

@AlbertCamusflage we can but hope!

Im very worried though as I found the SC case very depressing. I’m also looking at the possible future (or lack of) for the feminist group I attend. We may be doomed as I would not want to allow in S9 penis people! Our constitution state’s it’s for females only (defined as biological women) - has this the potential to be invalid? As I understood JC’s argument this may well be the case as we dont demand a specific political view from members!! If we all had to be ‘officially’ GC this would impact potential funding). 😱

The nightmare continues!

BonfireLady · 30/11/2024 08:06

And what about safeguarding law? Has this been mentioned at all? Do male teachers with a GRC get to share with girl children on school trips?

This is an excellent question and worth repeating.

According to the SG lawyers' interpretation of the law, yes. (Obviously on a plus note, their argument would be that those without a GRC don't).

It's equal to the "men with a GRC can be lesbians, men without one can't" point for how ridiculous it is but the red flags on safeguarding are through the roof. Obviously it's bad enough that lesbians have to accept that a certificate is a gamechanger but this is about protecting children. I really hope someone delves into this when Labour is looking to streamline the GRA. Is the loophole still open where DBS checks don't refer to offences under someone's previous name?
If so, a win for the SG lawyers would ratify the playbook that already exists as good law. This playbook:

  1. commit offences against children
  2. change your name by deed poll (MtF)
  3. DBS check to work in a school - checks done on new name only
  4. apply for GRC
  5. supervise in girls' accommodation on school trips, in girls' changing rooms in PE etc....

... and the law would say this is as it should be.

If the loophole on DBS checks is now closed, anyone who has never been caught (or hasn't yet escalated past accessing online content and/or the excitement from a bit of casual boundary transgression by going into female changing rooms etc) can just start at step 2.

CarefulN0w · 30/11/2024 08:20

Finally adding my thanks for these threads and the shared links now I've mostly caught up on the week's events. It's becoming a personal truth that these important legal cases always happen when I'm ridiculously busy with other things, so I'm very appreciative of the informed comment, legal knowledge and humour. Though the humour is somewhat hollow, it is a reminder of how the heck did we end up here?. Something the SG barrister may be asking herself this morning. Once she recovers from her hangover.

BonfireLady · 30/11/2024 08:25

AlbertCamusflage · 29/11/2024 10:14

Could I ask a question about the concept of 'a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim'?

Well, two questions really. The onus always seems to be on those arguing for single-sex spaces to demonstrate that exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Why isn't the onus of proof ever on the claim that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment requires the inclusion (in particular situations) of people with that characteristic? I don't mean people with a GRC, I mean the wider group of people who fall under that characteristic?

The protected characteristic of gender reassignment applies to all those who are going through a process or who are considering going through that process (as well as applying to those who have completed it and received a GRC).

So here is my second question: Given that the protected characteristic is essentially defined in relation to a specified process (not to a state of being such as 'gender identity'), what are the 'legitimate aims' that might reasonably be considered to be associated with the protected characteristic?

To tease out the answer to that question, we need to look at what the process is. I know it isn't fully defined in legislation, but a key part of it is 'living as a woman' for a specified period in order to build up the evidence that the intention to transition is serious and persistent.

Importantly, from the point of view of the reassignment process, 'living as a woman' simply means building up a certain evidence base. We know that the evidence required is very slight. You are not required (for example) to prove that you have joined a lesbian dating agency or a lesbian walking group. You are not required to prove that, in any or all areas of life you are accepted as if you actually are a woman. You are not required to prove that you get changed in the women's changing rooms at the gym, or receive counselling at a women's rape refuge. You need to provide some documentary evidence, such as a utilities bill that titles you as Mrs/miss/ms, and you may need a letter from someone such as your employer.

The protected characteristic of gender reassignment is intended to pprotect people from being discriminated against on the grounds of their participation in a process that is, in fact, quite minimal. Surely that must mean that the situations in which their inclusion in single sex spaces is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim are also quite minimal? This is because the protection afforded relates to a process not an identity.

At most, the procedural requirements of 'living as a woman' seem to require employers, pubs, restaurants, etc, not to discriminate against someone because their presentation conforms to opposite-sex norms. Why would it require more than that? Why would it require random lesbians to admit you to their group? Why would it require raped women to be counselled alongside you? All that the doctor needs is a couple of bits of paper.

Edited

Great post ⬆️⬆️⬆️

BonfireLady · 30/11/2024 08:49

AlbertCamusflage · 29/11/2024 19:39

Thanks very much @NoBinturongsHereMate and @prh47bridge . It is very interesting to read your explanations.

I think I understand a bit more now about why the kinds of argument that I was wanting to see rehearsed (ie those seeking to demonstrate the reasonableness of including males with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in single-sex groups) are not often seen.

Perhaps something adjacent to those types of argument would emerge if a man who did not have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment brought a case under the equality act complaining that he was subject to discrimination because he was being excluded from female spaces to which people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment were being admitted.

For example, a case brought by a non-transgender man whose sporting success was being compromised by his exclusion from a woman's category that included transwomen.

The defendant would have to explain the respects in which policy that differentially excluded some men and not others was a a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, which I guess would have to cite aims associated with the needs of gender-reassigning men.

But, apologies, I think I am in a rabbit hole and digging with all the blinkered energy of my obsessive little terrier

Interesting......

I wonder if any men on the "GC" side of things might consider putting in discrimination claims against organisations that are captured?

E.g. a man could apply to join the WI and then claim discrimination if the answer is no, pointing at all the other men (e.g. biological males without GRCs who identify as women, as per the SG lawyers' definition).

It'd be like the time Glinner put a profile up on a lesbian dating app but bigger, better and fought in the courts.

I would love to see that happen 🤞

Waitwhat23 · 30/11/2024 08:59

BonfireLady · 30/11/2024 08:06

And what about safeguarding law? Has this been mentioned at all? Do male teachers with a GRC get to share with girl children on school trips?

This is an excellent question and worth repeating.

According to the SG lawyers' interpretation of the law, yes. (Obviously on a plus note, their argument would be that those without a GRC don't).

It's equal to the "men with a GRC can be lesbians, men without one can't" point for how ridiculous it is but the red flags on safeguarding are through the roof. Obviously it's bad enough that lesbians have to accept that a certificate is a gamechanger but this is about protecting children. I really hope someone delves into this when Labour is looking to streamline the GRA. Is the loophole still open where DBS checks don't refer to offences under someone's previous name?
If so, a win for the SG lawyers would ratify the playbook that already exists as good law. This playbook:

  1. commit offences against children
  2. change your name by deed poll (MtF)
  3. DBS check to work in a school - checks done on new name only
  4. apply for GRC
  5. supervise in girls' accommodation on school trips, in girls' changing rooms in PE etc....

... and the law would say this is as it should be.

If the loophole on DBS checks is now closed, anyone who has never been caught (or hasn't yet escalated past accessing online content and/or the excitement from a bit of casual boundary transgression by going into female changing rooms etc) can just start at step 2.

AFAIK, the loophole still exists.

For anyone unaware of the loopholes created on a DBS/PVG check where the applicant has changed both gender markers and name or has gone through the enhanced privacy rights pathway -

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4641046-new-report-from-kpss-on-dbs-checks-where-name-gender-are-changed-the-safeguarding-loopholes-that-creates

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 09:06

And presumably men who want in to women's spaces where the women have added the PC of belief now just have to claim to literally be a woman (grc) then also to be GC. As it's a belief, it can't really be disproved and you can't use the male physique that you can literally see as a reason why they can't be GC because in the pigs ear of the law this person is literally a woman!!

It's actually a manipulator / coercive controllers dream. Blatantly lying but with the force of the law to make unconsenting women comply to 2+2= 5

One wonders how far it could go. Could a grc holder with a cock actually commit and get away with rape / indecent exposure ? They have a penis but in law they're literally a woman.

Snowypeaks · 30/11/2024 09:07

Everything may change if their ladyships and lordships rule for SG or EHRC, but I am sure that as things stand, a woman can put in a sex discrimination claim about the lack of adequate single sex toilet provision.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-64559184
Discussed in a more legalistic way here:
https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/article/1822248/considering-legalities-single-sex-toilets

It was a direct sex discrimination case about "gender neutral" toilets and part of her case was that she ran the risk of interacting with a male person in the hand washing area and of seeing penis on her way to the cubicle. (Also held to be infringing the privacy of the men using the urinals.)

ETA: The point of course is that the risk of interacting with a male person at the hand basins, and the risk of seeing penis would both exist if you were expected to share with MCWs.

Gender neutral toilet sign

Council's gender neutral toilets discriminated against female clerk

Karen Miller says she had to walk past the urinals to access the only cubicle in the toilet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-64559184

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 09:10

I am very concerned about the lack of focus on bad actors, it's not that hard to get a grc now, and the plan is to make it easier.

Waitwhat23 · 30/11/2024 09:24

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 09:10

I am very concerned about the lack of focus on bad actors, it's not that hard to get a grc now, and the plan is to make it easier.

Ah, but Shona Robison (MSP, used to be Deputy First Minister) insisted during the GRR bill debates that such a thing wouldn't happen!

(I've a feeling that she must really regret this quote now. Not because she doesn't believe it (she is a true believer) but because it makes her look so very stupid, particularly after the Isla Bryson case, which happened mere weeks after the GRR was passed)

For Women Scotland in Supreme Court - thread 3
Datun · 30/11/2024 09:25

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 09:06

And presumably men who want in to women's spaces where the women have added the PC of belief now just have to claim to literally be a woman (grc) then also to be GC. As it's a belief, it can't really be disproved and you can't use the male physique that you can literally see as a reason why they can't be GC because in the pigs ear of the law this person is literally a woman!!

It's actually a manipulator / coercive controllers dream. Blatantly lying but with the force of the law to make unconsenting women comply to 2+2= 5

One wonders how far it could go. Could a grc holder with a cock actually commit and get away with rape / indecent exposure ? They have a penis but in law they're literally a woman.

Edited

Totally.

if they say the only way lesbians can meet is if they have a shared (protected) belief which would exclude a man who is trans (because being trans would be the opposite to that belief), then they're not bloody paying attention.

Perhaps they haven't quite grasped exactly how fucked up this bizarro world we are inhabiting is.

In order to access unconsenting women, a man will absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt, claim that he is a woman whilst simultaneously claiming he doesn't believe in it.

I mean, for fuck's sake, they've already got men saying they're homosexual, whilst simultaneously claiming it doesn't exist!

Datun · 30/11/2024 09:30

Justme56 · 29/11/2024 20:03

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2024/11/scottish-government-is-ignoring-womens-rights

Hannah Barnes writes about the case in the New Statesman.

Very interesting

They are burning everything to the ground to win this case.

They really are. They're going for broke.

They're reading the writing on the wall and have decided that ultimately the only way to legitimise what they're doing is through the acquisition of a lady ticket.

Chapter 2 is going to be all about the hordes of men who suddenly apply for one and what a piece of piss it is

ArabellaScott · 30/11/2024 09:34

Datun · 30/11/2024 09:30

Very interesting

They are burning everything to the ground to win this case.

They really are. They're going for broke.

They're reading the writing on the wall and have decided that ultimately the only way to legitimise what they're doing is through the acquisition of a lady ticket.

Chapter 2 is going to be all about the hordes of men who suddenly apply for one and what a piece of piss it is

If this passes, it will push far greater numbers to get a GRC.

That in itself will push the problems with men getting £5 lady tickets to the fore.

ArabellaScott · 30/11/2024 09:35

Going by the Scotgov logic, how would a man with a lady ticket be sent to male prison?

Datun · 30/11/2024 09:37

ArabellaScott · 30/11/2024 09:34

If this passes, it will push far greater numbers to get a GRC.

That in itself will push the problems with men getting £5 lady tickets to the fore.

Yes. There's no shying away from it. force the court to clarify what everything means, and then address that.

If it goes in women's favour, then great. If not, then this is just stage one.

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 09:46

There are already transsexuals who say they're GC, is the court aware of this? The desperate clutching of straws to suggest that there's some way lesbians can have lesbian spaces and the GRA isn't homophobic and discriminatory to it's core doesn't stand up to the lightest scrutiny.

BonfireLady · 30/11/2024 09:50

Datun · 30/11/2024 09:30

Very interesting

They are burning everything to the ground to win this case.

They really are. They're going for broke.

They're reading the writing on the wall and have decided that ultimately the only way to legitimise what they're doing is through the acquisition of a lady ticket.

Chapter 2 is going to be all about the hordes of men who suddenly apply for one and what a piece of piss it is

Yep.

Chapter 2 is going to be all about the hordes of men who suddenly apply for one and what a piece of piss it is

Very true. But it means that the boundaries of the battle are a lot clearer than they are now.

Anyone without a GRC becomes irrelevant noise. Yes, they are protected from harassment and discrimination under the PC of gender reassignment but that doesn't mean that anyone needs to uphold their gender identity as true. For example, a man who identifes as a woman (with no GRC) won't be able to enter women's hospital wards, women's changing rooms etc etc. Well, realistically they will carry on doing that but it's clear that they don't (and never did have) any legal standing on which to do so. They can expect to see institutions getting braver on this I think/hope 🤞 Obviously many people will go off and get a GRC but we'll now see applications from the Isla Bryson types and the public will realise that it's not all about the Hayley Croppers.

I'd like to see public institutions being braver right now e.g. the NHS should announce that it won't accept gender identity as sex unless the person has a birth certificate in their newly acquired gender /"legal sex"). This then ringfences the stupidity in to a smaller box and makes it easier to see e.g. there will be no way to separate the women who have prostates from the women who don't on their database. So they'll just have to write to all women to remind them of prostate health. It'll be a peaking catalyst, like the silly wall poster that says "before x-ray we'll ask you if you're pregnant regardless of your gender". Even my daughter (who has been actively gender questioning and uses she pronouns for TW) laughs at that poster every time we sit next to it.

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 09:51

I feel these people discussing this in court must live in a world very removed from reality. Obviously any man who's gone to the not particularly huge but nevertheless some effort of getting a grc is obviously then going to just say he's a gc lesbian like all the other gc lesbians to access the group he wants.

They need to go and meet a few of the more well known abusers of self ID, I expect Isla Bryson would be free.

DrBlackbird · 30/11/2024 10:01

The SG are no different from the group studied by Festinger who believed the UFOs were going to come save them from the flood in the 1950s.

Being challenged in the insane argument that a piece of paper makes a man into a woman appears to led the SG to fervently increase govt commitment and efforts to recruit others into this belief in an effort to avoid their cognitive dissonance. Maybe a smidgen of arrogance and ego.

Ultimately In their unreflective, unintelligent, reflexively stubborn response, the SG are determined to remove dignity, safeguarding, language, rights, representation, awards, safety and rationality from girls and women. It’s unbelievable really that they cannot - will not - recognise the implications of the unreality they’re forcing on women.

Szygy · 30/11/2024 10:02

I fear that the justices might move in quite rarefied air and probably haven’t been down in the thickets of the struggle, as we all have. I’m thinking of guidance they might have received from the infamous Equal Treatment Bench Book for eg - I know it’s been updated quite recently but it’s a worry.

I’d feel a lot happier if I knew they were aware of some of the more egregious things we all know - although it was good to see them asking some extremely to-the-point questions, and I’m happy to accept that they are formidably learned. Keeping my fingers very much crossed that their deliberations will take them in the direction of sanity and reality.

Datun · 30/11/2024 10:04

Debbie Hayton says he's gender critical, ffs.

DrBlackbird · 30/11/2024 10:09

RoyalCorgi · 29/11/2024 13:34

No. It might be more complex than that. The trouble with the EA is it actually says (and this is the direct quote):
7 Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

It absolutely astonishes me that the people who drafted this thought it was an acceptable phrasing to use in an act of parliament. Even more astonishing that it must have been read by lawyers, civil servants, MPs and peers before being passed into law, and that nobody - apparently - said "This is so vague as to be absolutely meaningless and will cause no end of aggravation down the line."

What were these people thinking of?

Almost as they were deliberately leaving the door wide open for any man to say at any time that he was a woman. Men don’t like being told ‘no’.

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 10:21

Datun · 30/11/2024 10:04

Debbie Hayton says he's gender critical, ffs.

Exactly, and he's not the only prominent gc transsexual.

I admit to getting a bit pissed off at the point the red haired SG lawyer was talking about removing the rights of lesbians to set up lesbian only groups. Not only did her argument that they could just organize as GC appear to be made up on the spot as mitigation to the obvious attempt to force lesbians to include men, and is obviously stupid (some transsexuals are GC already, any man who wants in can then just claim to be GC), then the judge did say 'but what about the chilling effect' and I shouted at the screen when she didn't follow up with 'and they could just claim to be gc also'.

If someone's willing to go to the 'effort' of obtaining a grc, why on earth would the fantasies stop there? It's a lot less of a denial of material reality to claim you have a belief you don't than to say you've changed physical sex.

AlbertCamusflage · 30/11/2024 10:25

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 30/11/2024 09:46

There are already transsexuals who say they're GC, is the court aware of this? The desperate clutching of straws to suggest that there's some way lesbians can have lesbian spaces and the GRA isn't homophobic and discriminatory to it's core doesn't stand up to the lightest scrutiny.

In fairness, i don't imagine that anyone in court was actually suggesting that this GC workaround for lesbian groups was a solution to anything at all. They were just trying to tease out the logic of a particular interpretation of the law.
Hopefully that example will serve as a reductio ad absurdum for a particular interpretation, making it impossible for the court to conclude that it reflected the intentions of parliament.
Judges seem to be like philosophers in that they have to take a position of assumed naivety in order to interrogate various assumptions and logical moves. I don't think we should conclude that they are daft in virtue of the daftness of the scenarios they discussed.