‘Gender neutral’ / ‘gender neutral with urinals’ toilets at Lyric Hammersmith

[ArchMemory]

I know there have been many discussions here about sex / gender and toilets. But I wanted to share my recent experience. Of course scroll on by if this isn’t of interest.

My teenage son and I recently went to see a play at the Lyric theatre in Hammersmith. I should have left more time for the journey and we were in a rush when we arrived and both wanted to visit the loo before the performance started.

The loos we found were near the bar and there were two sets: ‘gender neutral’ and ‘gender neutral with urinals’, so clearly what used to be women’s and men’s. There was a sign saying where you could find alternative non gender neutral toilets but we didn’t have time to go looking.

There was a long queue for ‘gender neutral’ (mainly women in the queue) and no queue for ‘gender neutral with urinals’. My son and I stood there hesitating. A man came out of ‘gender neutral with urinals’ and said to my son something like “go in there and the women will leave”. I joined the queue for ‘gender neutral’ and after hesitating a bit longer my son did go into ‘gender neutral with urinals’ but then left again and joined the queue for ‘gender neutral’. He told me later that he didn’t feel comfortable using the urinal with women walking past.

This set up just seemed to be the worst of all worlds for everyone except a very small number of people who wouldn’t feel comfortable using toilets marked men’s or women’s. Very few people (men or women) wanted to use ‘gender neutral with urinals’ and the queue for ‘gender neutral’ was longer than it even usually is for the ladies at the theatre. I was also conscious that women might not have been comfortable with him in those toilets, but he wasn’t comfortable in the other toilets which I could understand and he used toilets he was entitled to based on the signage.

At the interval my son found the men’s toilet and used that for preference.

I wanted to share because it was actually my first time experiencing toilets with this set up (converted from men’s and ladies rather than truly gender neutral single cubicles) and it just struck me how totally unsatisfactory it was.

That is truly ludicrous. You should definitely complain.

Men don't want to use urinals in full view of women and women don't want to see men using urinals. The market for people wanting to use 'gender neutral with urinals' must be very very small. Effectively it's just reducing women's access to toilets.

If they are going to convert to all gender neutral loos they need to do it properly with floor to ceiling doors on each cubicle and ideally a sink and bin too. That's the only time I ever feel at all comfortable with gender neutral loos.

Similar to the Royal Court.

Instead of 'Men' and 'Women' it's now something like '2 cubicles & 5 urinals' and '5 cubicles'.

There used to be a sign telling people 'to be kind and tolerant blah, blah' in other words women were not to complain if men went into what is supposed to be the facility for women, but I didn't see the sign this time.

All this for 0.04% of the population!

It's not even being done for them. They generally like to avoid the gender neutral facilities because they want the validation that comes with using those of the opposite sex.

So it's all this to please absolutely no one.

Edit: I suppose it might please the nonbinaries.

It's absolutely ridiculous. No one (male or female) wants both sexes in toilets with urinals. There's a restaurant I've been to in Manchester a few times with gender neutral toilets which irritates me a bit but there are about eight cubicles with floor to ceiling doors and wash basins outside. It's not ideal but at least women don't have to see men at a urinal.

Thanks ArchMemory. I may be a bit slow, but I hadn't thought about this matter in such detail (though I'll let myself off as I don't live in such a "progressive" part of the country!). I'm quite an old man, and probably wouldn't be too bothered personally these days, but I do remember what it was like to be a teenager, and I would have been as uncomfortable as your son. It is probably difficult for women to understand how embarrassing being a sensitive teenage boy can be; just as it would be hard for me to fully understand what it's like to be a teenage girl.

The people who make decisions about toilet provision in public spaces seem to have forgotten how to consider everyone's needs.

Yes, the Lyric toilets are bloody awful.

Sounds like loos I've been in in mainland Europe. Ladies walk past the men using the urinals.

There's a cafe/music venue near me that has similar, gender neutral and gender neutral with urinals. I love the place but haven't been back since they did this. No sign on a door is going to make me feel ok walking into a room where men are peeing into urinals and I don't want men coming into the ladies.

OP, can I ask why your son didn’t just use a cubicle in the former ‘male’ toilet? Particularly if there was no line? Or were the cubicle/s there all busy and he was awkward waiting there by himself?

Complain, complain, complain!
I've experienced SA more than once so I am really concerned about this.
I am going to the Noel Coward theatre and the National theatre in the next month- does anyone know if these are safe? Or do I just not drink all day?

I’m not sure. I assumed there was only 1 or maybe 2 occupied cubicles and he didn’t want to stand there waiting. Although he did end up waiting in the other queue anyway but I (his mum) was in there so perhaps that helped.

As a 20 year old woman I'd walk into the "gender neutral with urinals" just because I was allowed to.
I DO NOT mean I'm a peeping thomasina (I don't WANT to see men at the urinals - not most men anyway!), but I'd do it to annoy the people who come up with such ridiculous notices!

If ive got the right loos the annoying bit (one of them ) is that the gents is just past the ladies

last time i was there hardly any of the men were in the gents, they were all in the ladies

National Theatre is good

Maybe women should start queuing outside the cubicles within the ex-men's loos.
Perhaps having a row of women standing by them will make men complain about the situation too.

At this stage, I feel like it's going to happen more and more because it's the cheapest way for public venues to avoid having to engage in discussion about who can go in which loo.

It's not ideal, in that I don't enjoy using the loo after men. But it tells me that I may find a bloke inside so I won't feel taken by surprise.

Yes the (former) ladies closer to the bar and the gents beyond.

This set-up is better but not perfect by any means. It is quite possible to put cameras etc in floor to ceiling integral cubicles, so staff should be sweeping for these constantly - and I suspect they do not.
All this hassle for what, .02% of the population who have that thing we're not supposed to mention?

I would complain. They will likely say that there are alternatives in the building but it doesn’t solve the issue for those people just arriving at the venue. I’m not sure how valid the argument would be but there was a case where a woman won a tribunal against her employer because she didn’t have access to a female only toilet and had to walk past men using the urinal (see below). It was found that the detriment to the woman was much greater than to a man which possibly could be applied to this situation too. Whilst it is different as there are 2 sets of loos (cubicles and cubicles/urinals) which either sex can use the detrimental effect is still much greater to women (they are less likely to use the cubicles/urinals), so there is unequal provision and possibly some form of indirect discrimination. It’s all a bit woolly but just my thoughts.

Just back from Italy. Cafes tended to have gender-neutral toilets, in the sense that there was one toilet for everyone. Hotels, larger restaurants, museums, churches with toilets (not many), and concert halls had separate male and female toilets. No concession whatsoever for gender dysphorics. Why do we have to put up with this nonsense?

Please make a complaint. I experienced something similar there. I have been flashed many times in my life. At the time of my visit, "with urinals" was not part of the sign, it just said "gender-neutral", so I walked into the former mens' toilets and suddenly stood in front of open urinals. They were fortunately empty at the time but I got a shock. Where is the safeguarding? This is basically an invitation for exhibitionists.

A traumatised girl I know was there with her family and they had to leave during the break, because she got an anxiety attack while queuing for the gender neutral (former women's) toilets with men in the queue. There was no signage to female toilets at the time.

I made a complaint and the Lyric told me they had consulted with Trans groups - but clearly not with women. They were dismissive. I have not been back since. Things will only change if there is pushback, so please complain.

I made a complaint and the Lyric told me they had consulted with Trans groups - but clearly not with women.

Says it all. 🙁

Sigh. We need a spreadsheet for easy reference.

Most of these places are probably registered charities with rules to abide by, within their own constitution or legislation, or receive Arts Council money with strings attached. I often wonder whether the effective discrimination against women who cannot use a loo with males in it, whether for religious or SA reasons or simply dignity, could put such establishments in a corner over this?

I'm guessing that any body in receipt of Arts Council money has to undertake to make its offerings appealing to all religions/cultures, etc - and it could surely be argued that loos with urinals effectively block some religious women from attending.

We have to put up with this nonsense because a small number of men who get off on exposing themselves / making women & girls uncomfortable have managed to wedge themselves into positions of influence where they've persuaded politicians and those in power that their demands are reasonable and that women protesting are bigots. As those in power have outsourced their thinking on this to these men and their organisations, few have the insight to challenge these predatory values.

I'm done with pandering to those trying to remove the crimes of indecent exposure / flashing from legislation. No girl or woman should be expected to use toilets with men using urinals and those demanding it (individuals and organisations) should be the ones expected to show their thinking about why they're promoting indecent exposure as acceptable.