‘Gender neutral’ / ‘gender neutral with urinals’ toilets at Lyric Hammersmith

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I know there have been many discussions here about sex / gender and toilets. But I wanted to share my recent experience. Of course scroll on by if this isn’t of interest.

My teenage son and I recently went to see a play at the Lyric theatre in Hammersmith. I should have left more time for the journey and we were in a rush when we arrived and both wanted to visit the loo before the performance started.

The loos we found were near the bar and there were two sets: ‘gender neutral’ and ‘gender neutral with urinals’, so clearly what used to be women’s and men’s. There was a sign saying where you could find alternative non gender neutral toilets but we didn’t have time to go looking.

There was a long queue for ‘gender neutral’ (mainly women in the queue) and no queue for ‘gender neutral with urinals’. My son and I stood there hesitating. A man came out of ‘gender neutral with urinals’ and said to my son something like “go in there and the women will leave”. I joined the queue for ‘gender neutral’ and after hesitating a bit longer my son did go into ‘gender neutral with urinals’ but then left again and joined the queue for ‘gender neutral’. He told me later that he didn’t feel comfortable using the urinal with women walking past.

This set up just seemed to be the worst of all worlds for everyone except a very small number of people who wouldn’t feel comfortable using toilets marked men’s or women’s. Very few people (men or women) wanted to use ‘gender neutral with urinals’ and the queue for ‘gender neutral’ was longer than it even usually is for the ladies at the theatre. I was also conscious that women might not have been comfortable with him in those toilets, but he wasn’t comfortable in the other toilets which I could understand and he used toilets he was entitled to based on the signage.

At the interval my son found the men’s toilet and used that for preference.

I wanted to share because it was actually my first time experiencing toilets with this set up (converted from men’s and ladies rather than truly gender neutral single cubicles) and it just struck me how totally unsatisfactory it was.

I complained too.
They told me, first and foremost, that they were an inclusive theatre. I asked how they were including women whose religion, previous trauma or dignity meant they couldn’t them as they were? They just kept repeating that they were an inclusive theatre. I pushed and asked which toilet was inclusive for those that didn’t feel safe sharing with bio men and they told me they were free to use the disabled. I pointed out that was not inclusive for disabled people, they had no answer. It just kept going round amd round.
I’ve not been back since.

I’ll add that this came around because I am quite short, it was packed and I glimpsed the sign 5 cubicles or something like that, I boldly walked in on a load of men at urinals, felt really awkward and walked straight back out again. Luckily for me this only comprised my dignity as I was really embarrassed and it was unexpected but it didn’t compromise my religious beliefs.

National Theatre gets my bookings now.

At the risk of stating the obvious, "inclusion" that excludes more people than it includes, is not inclusion by definition.

But they would argue that they are including everyone.

Can we set a date and all complain to The Old Vic on the same day?

I made a complaint and the Lyric told me they had consulted with Trans groups - but clearly not with women. They were dismissive. I have not been back since. Things will only change if there is pushback, so please complain.

Yes, please do complain, every single time.

(I've heard of women using sharpies to add ♀ on the doors of 'gender neutral' loos that used to be Ladies lavatories. Just saying...)

I've seen that happen in a college in France. Neither the boys with dicks in their hands nor the girls chatting and not watching (or pretending not to watch in my and my friend's case) seemed concerned. But we're not France!

Really, I went to university for a year in France and never saw anything of the sort.

Toilets were single sex.

I always use the gender neutral with urinal toilets in this instance.

why the fuck should men NOT be made uncomfortable by the insane policies that are being put in place and often supported heavily by men.

until THEY experience discomfort etc they will continue to minimise the legitimate concerns that woman raise about the loss of single sex spaces.

This was in a college "campus" in Cahors. The toilets were (in theory anyway) single sex but you went through part of The Boys to get to The Girls. I wasn't studying there tho - we were visiting. I've found that situation in other places in France (there's a cafe in Vichy where you can't help seeing the men at the urinals as you walk past).

Goodness me, I'm aware that in some public places particularly the further south you go there are shared spaces where urinals are in the space but I wasn't aware they are in colleges.

I was at a university in the North of France, that most definitely was not the set up there.

"As a 20 year old woman I'd walk into the "gender neutral with urinals" "

This has always been a fairly common occurrence in nightclubs etc when the ladies queue got too long, even before gender neutral facilities !

As a 70 year old woman I refuse to put up with this cr@p...

Anyone noticed the brand new station loos at Waterloo? (Not in the old Eurostar bit, but up on the main concourse).

Lots of weirdness! From the concourse there looks to be solely "male toilets" and "gender neutral toilets" (can't remember precise wording).

However what the actual provision is is that the stairs to the "male toilets" lead down to one side of the male toilets and the stairs to the "gender neutral" leads down to a lobby with the other side of the same male toilets to the right, and female toilets to the left. Here denoted by traditional logos.

The first time I spent a while up on the concourse looking for "female toilets". It's incredible that they don't think these need proper signage, when they clearly realise "male toilets" do.

Oh and the actual brand new toilets... Look as though they were originally installed with gaps which were then filled in. Doors open inwards. So absolutely terrible for anyone who has collapsed. I would have thought this was extra significant in somewhere like a train station, with large numbers of street drinkers and drug users around.

Also spare a thought for the quandary that a non binary person must feel at the bottom of the stairs faced by the binary choice of two traditional toilet symbols, having been assured at concourse level of gender neutral facilities.

Same at the Playhouse (Kitkat Club), toilets labelled as '5 cubicles' or '3 cubicles 4 urinals'. The ones nearest us were (former) ladies, very cramped with two narrow half doors on each cubicle because there wasn't much space to open a normal door. Had to really squeeze past people at the sinks. When I left I saw men in the queue and thought it would have been uncomfortably close quarters with them in the room.

Also it took me as an adult English native a minute to understand which toilets were which. Which means these toilets are the opposite of inclusive for non-native speakers, children and people with special needs.

Awful. They will be terrible to clean too as you can’t get a mop under enclosed cubicles from the outside so the cleaner would have to go inside to clear up any ‘excreta’ on the floor then close the door, and at that stage it will be on the door itself. Hope they have good extra ventilation too.

For anyone feeling really ill, I say prop the door wide open, if you are in the right frame of mind to be that aware, just in case. Rather a slight embarrassment than risking your life. That goes for being very ill and alone at home too. Paramedics say that - and if possible get to your front door and unlock it after calling an ambulance.

I complained about the mixed sex toilets at a circus event I went to last year. They were those trailers you get at upmarket festivals, but the signs had been replaced with symbols which you couldn't really see and noone was expecting. So there were just two mixed sex queues, one of which ended up at a trailer which contained 50% urinals.

I got a polite 'thanks for feedback, we'll take comments on board' response.

Here's what I said:

Loved the show, thought it was great. I really didn't like the toilet arrangements though - seems like a good idea to provide a gender neutral option for those who want one, but the result of making all the toilets gender neutral was confusion, a queue including women who got to the front before they realised that half the toilets were unusable for them, and a queue including men, which meant that the 'cubicle only' toilets ended up with seat up and wee everywhere (my experience). End result of 'inclusion': more toilets for men and fewer (and worse) for women.

Female people can't use urinals, however they identify. Male people unfortunately often leave a mess in cubicles when they urinate, however they identify.

I avoided drinking for the whole evening in order to avoid needing to use the loo again and ended up uncomfortably thirsty and dehydrated. It would definitely put me off attending another show. Please consider providing male and female toilets, with an additional gender neutral option.

And of course @Keeptoiletssafe is quite right. I find these gender neutral toilets in public places unsettling and unpleasant. As well as the safety issues, the hygiene issues are significant, and, as usual, it's women who lose out the most.

This research (in hospitals) showed gender neutral facilities to be even dirtier than men-only. They suggest that this may be due to higher traffic. I think it's more likely down to them being poorly ventilated (fully enclosed) and harder to clean, as highlighted above.

www.medscape.co.uk/viewarticle/mens-hospital-toilets-manky-single-sex-loos-advised-2024a1000aco

Well I've travelled to several areas of southern France (& northern Spain) and found big differences. Otw there aren't official "shared spaces" and cubicles are not shared, but we found that in most places urinals were "on display", or sometimes (notably in a car park in a place called Le Bugue) you didn't know which toilets were which until you opened the doors and noted which had urinals in! Even then, it seemed as if some people took no notice and simply used cubicles in whichever was closest!
On the plentiful urinals thing, we were undecided as to whether men were "lucky" being able to use them quickly everywhere without queueing or whether they were "unlucky" having us being able to watch them!

Yes lots of recent studies looking at airborne diseases such as Covid, show that more disease particles are in enclosed cubicles - which is commonsense but is scientifically proven now too. If you stop air circulation you need mechanical ventilation to get rid of the higher concentration of fumes. But most places don’t spend the extra money on this.

I totally agree with you.

Am I missing something? I wouldn't go in and walk past men at the urinals, but men can use the toilet cubicles in there if they are deterred by women and would rather have some privacy.

I attended a show at the Lyric and absolutely hated this toilet situation too.

There was a large queue (of men and women) waiting for the loos closest to the bar (formerly the women's loos). I noticed another sign nearby for 'gender neutral' (don't recall any mention of urinals) with no queue so went towards it behind two teenage girls, only to see them walk in and straight out again. Upon looking inside, I could see why - a row of exposed urinals and one single cubicle at the end. No way am I walking past strange men pissing in front of me, or using a cubicle that is tucked at the back of the room. I would be furious if my teenage daughters were forced to use such an arrangement.

So I did what the two teens before me had done and turned and walked out, leaving an entirely empty toilet, to join the 'other' gender neutral loos which had a queue. Women do not want this!!
I was also quietly fuming with every man I saw come out of the former ladies', because there was an empty loo with urinals a mere ten steps away for them to use, which women cannot.

I didn't complain (been there, done that with other places and received 'we're inclusive' waffle as a response which only angers me further). But I'm protesting with my wallet and I won't be going back - and we are a family of four who watch a lot of shows.

Yes, men get the best of both worlds - women get shit.

The toilet situation for women at public venues is dire enough already - just observe the loooong queues at intervals. The last thing we need is men invading the Ladies Rooms...

No, I don't meant that. I understand the issues for women and wouldn't go in there. And I know there's issues if men decide to go where we prefer.

But OP's son waited for a men's only facility in order to be seen at the urinal by women. Presumably he's happy being seen there by other men (I don't know). But if most women were avoiding it and leaving because of men, surely a cubicle would have soon been available for a man.

I know it's better for men than it is for women and overall don't think that's a good thing, but the specific issue pointed out wasn't really one.