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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Should I raise this with DS

37 replies

Partridgewell · 27/10/2024 20:29

Hi all,

Would very much appreciate your wisdom here. I have a DS who has just turned 11. He's always been gender non-conforming. Likes to wear brightly-coloured clothes, often from the girls' section, likes to have his nails painted, enjoys dance and musical theatre. However, he has never, ever expressed that he feels born in the wrong body, or that he is female, he just likes typically girly stuff.

This is all absolutely fine by me, just to be clear. His elder brother is gay (although is very conformist in terms of his clothing and interests). What worries me is, as he grows up and moves up in secondary school, I fear he might be targeted by followers or the gender woo. He is being assessed for ASD (big brother is diagnosed) and I know that gender non-conforming kids with ASD make up a huge number of trans-identified children.

My dilemma is this. Do I talk to him about this stuff now? By which I mean, say to him that it's absolutely fine to like what he likes, but he's male, and he'll soon be going through male puberty and that he'll always be male? Or shall I just leave well alone, in case it's not on his radar yet? He has access to YouTube kids, but not Tiktok, X, Snapchat or Instagram. Would appreciate any thoughts or resources.

OP posts:
Original poster
Partridgewell · 27/10/2024 20:31

Sorry, I should clarify, I realise this doesn't mean that he is gay, just that this would not concern me in any shape or form.

OP posts:
fabricstash · 27/10/2024 20:52

My son is very gnc. I just keep communications open and discuss the issues as we go. As you know there is no correct way to dress as a boy or a girl

eatyeateat · 27/10/2024 21:21

Watching with interest with another GNC child.

DodoPatrol · 27/10/2024 21:37

You might find it useful to raise with the school that he is a happily gender-NC boy who has never expressed any gender confusion. Specifically ask them not to raise it with him or 'question his pronouns', as his possible ASD may mean that he misinterprets this.

A friend is currently having to be quite firm with her daughter's school, who seem to have seen a shorthaired girl and just assumed she identifies otherwise. Nearly every communication uses 'they' or 'he'. And no, it's not coming from the girl herself. Chumps.

Circumferences · 27/10/2024 21:37

Yes of course you can talk to him about sex/gender stereotypes.

In your situation I would simply keep it to "it's great how you're not bothered by sex stereotypes and you feel confident expressing yourself". Does your son know how babies are made?

Circumferences · 27/10/2024 21:38

Nearly every communication uses 'they' or 'he'. And no, it's not coming from the girl herself.

😲 That's sick

Park24 · 27/10/2024 21:45

I'd be concerned that raising it with him would plant the seed in his head - as you said a huge number of kids who identify as trans have ASD.

I'd want to know exactly what the school policy is and I'd want to make sure he wasn't led into it via the school as well.

Original poster
Partridgewell · 27/10/2024 21:50

Circumferences · 27/10/2024 21:37

Yes of course you can talk to him about sex/gender stereotypes.

In your situation I would simply keep it to "it's great how you're not bothered by sex stereotypes and you feel confident expressing yourself". Does your son know how babies are made?

That's an excellent idea. Yes, he does.

OP posts:
Gagagardener · 27/10/2024 21:58

'Just turned 11', you say. Is his birthday in September or October so that he is still in Y6, but one of the oldest in the year group? If that is the case, whatever you decide to do must take account of the upheaval that will follow moving from primary to secondary education. Other posters may be able to give more detailed advice.

ThatOpenSwan · 27/10/2024 22:06

DodoPatrol · 27/10/2024 21:37

You might find it useful to raise with the school that he is a happily gender-NC boy who has never expressed any gender confusion. Specifically ask them not to raise it with him or 'question his pronouns', as his possible ASD may mean that he misinterprets this.

A friend is currently having to be quite firm with her daughter's school, who seem to have seen a shorthaired girl and just assumed she identifies otherwise. Nearly every communication uses 'they' or 'he'. And no, it's not coming from the girl herself. Chumps.

Of course it comes from the kid, schools don't just do that. That's a child who's scared to tell a transphobic parent how they're feeling.

nocoolnamesleft · 27/10/2024 22:15

ThatOpenSwan · 27/10/2024 22:06

Of course it comes from the kid, schools don't just do that. That's a child who's scared to tell a transphobic parent how they're feeling.

Show quote history

Then why is it epidemic in some schools? Like epidemics of self harming, or eating disorders...

BlackToes · 27/10/2024 22:20

Tell him that you were very lucky to be able to wear any clothes as a child/adult in the 80s and you had no peer pressure to have a label. You could just be free. Point out that social media has increased peer pressure and it takes courage to bend - wether that be drugs, alcohol, identity, career choices.

BonfireLady · 27/10/2024 22:31

ThatOpenSwan · 27/10/2024 22:06

Of course it comes from the kid, schools don't just do that. That's a child who's scared to tell a transphobic parent how they're feeling.

Show quote history

They do.

I've had to ask teachers not to refer to my short-haired daughter as "they" when communicating with me about her (in emails that are clearly directly about her, not just generic copy/paste about multiple children).

Any change of pronoun is a social transition, because it sets the scene that s child may not actually be their sex. Given the Cass Report explains that it's not a neutral act, it's inappropriate for an adult to change the pronouns of a child at school, or to assume that a child may want to do this because of how they look.

It feels like some adults have forgotten that some girls prefer short hair.

DodoPatrol · 27/10/2024 22:41

ThatOpenSwan · 27/10/2024 22:06

Of course it comes from the kid, schools don't just do that. That's a child who's scared to tell a transphobic parent how they're feeling.

Show quote history

This school does. And they haven't said it's come from the child, who says that she doesn't know (shrug) why they keep doing that.

Why would you doubt the girl's word and treat the school as correct about her preferred gender? Would you, yourself, look at a shorthaired girl and assume she wants to transition, that her parents are in denial and that the child is scared, or would you just see a shorthaired girl?

Her parent is very far from scary. (Well, except sometimes to school staff.)

DodoPatrol · 27/10/2024 22:42

The girl is not noticeably reluctant to scold her parents for all manner of wrongdoings, but transphobia is not one of her complaints!

Zahariel · 28/10/2024 07:07

He will be targeted. Yes you should bring it up now. Slowly but constantly.

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 28/10/2024 07:38

Yes, I've discussed stereotypes and conforming or not conforming to them from an early age.

My children were taught it's okay to play with stereotypes or question, ignore, or subvert them.

They were taught that some people are straight and some gay or bisexual.

They were taught age appropriately about biology, sex ed, etc. Chromosomes, reproduction, puberty.

But of course this makes me a reactionary dinosaur bigotphobe, and some would prefer to ask children to look deep into their souls to scry what precious gender they feel within, and then dress, name, and medicate according to the holy texts of Judith Butler and genderwiki.

BonfireLady · 28/10/2024 07:38

OP, there are two books you might find helpful (given his age, he's probably between the two but way nearer the second):

  1. My Body is Me
  2. Sex and Gender

The first is for 3-6 year olds, the second for teens. The second one has a page where it explains that labels/boxes (all the various gender identities) aren't necessary to be yourself e.g. you can be a boy who likes typically girly stuff without needing to be in the girl box. It also helps to anchor and explain the difference between the sexes and how confusing adolesence can be. It's written with autism in mind.

I only mention the first book in case he's still emotionally immature and/or still enjoys rhyme (although I fully appreciate it's likely to be too young for him). I bought the second for my daughter when she had just turned 14 and she liked it. I don't think she would have understood it at 11.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/product/my-body-is-me/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/sex-and-gender-new-book-teens/

Sex and Gender - we launch our new book for teens! - Transgender Trend

Sex and Gender is our new book for tweens/teens, by the artist and author Phoebe Rose. Ideal for families, schools and libraries.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/sex-and-gender-new-book-teens

Original poster
Partridgewell · 28/10/2024 08:15

@BonfireLady Funnily enough, I bought the Sex and Gender one yesterday after a little googling. I think that's a more appropriate one for him. He has two politically interested adult siblings, so probably knows a little more about feminism than most boys his age.

Both of his siblings are much more "trans women are women" than DH and I though, particularly his brother. His sister is definitely more sympathetic to my viewpoint (she's read Hags and Material Girls) but has to pretend not to be at uni, so she doesn't get black- balled. He has much more to do with his sister than his brother. I might get her to have a chat with him when she's back from uni for Christmas. Perhaps when she's painting his nails...

OP posts:
teawamutu · 28/10/2024 09:11

I had two lovely, gentle little boys who were fairly GNC. I concentrated on 'toys are toys, there's no one way to be anything and you're perfect the way you are'.

Their dinosaurs phase was quite useful for evolutionary biology messaging, too 😁

TofuTart · 28/10/2024 11:16

ThatOpenSwan · 27/10/2024 22:06

Of course it comes from the kid, schools don't just do that. That's a child who's scared to tell a transphobic parent how they're feeling.

Show quote history

Yes, this is the bit that doesn't sit right with me in this topic as well - do people think you just go to school as say for example a short haired, football mad girl who hangs out with the boys and the teachers just decide to "turn you trans" or something?!
Yeah, it doesn't really work like that. It makes as much sense as the old argument "don't tell kids about being gay' as it might make them want to be it too!"

TofuTart · 28/10/2024 11:18

Zahariel · 28/10/2024 07:07

He will be targeted. Yes you should bring it up now. Slowly but constantly.

He will be targeted

Said as fact 🙄
To scaremonger?

Targeted by who, and why?

Zahariel · 28/10/2024 11:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Zahariel · 28/10/2024 11:23

TofuTart · 28/10/2024 11:16

Yes, this is the bit that doesn't sit right with me in this topic as well - do people think you just go to school as say for example a short haired, football mad girl who hangs out with the boys and the teachers just decide to "turn you trans" or something?!
Yeah, it doesn't really work like that. It makes as much sense as the old argument "don't tell kids about being gay' as it might make them want to be it too!"

Show quote history

They literally do that.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/10/2024 11:27

TofuTart · 28/10/2024 11:18

He will be targeted

Said as fact 🙄
To scaremonger?

Targeted by who, and why?

Show quote history

Maybe you haven't been on this board for long? Stick around and have a read of the experiences of so many parents who find their often mentally vulnerable, autistic, often gay child is targeted by online / their peer group and the useful idiot adults in school telling them that their bodies are flawed but a sex change is the perfect solution. And this is what happens:

www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

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