Feminised words

[Davros]

I've been pondering this. Why are we no longer supposed to call female acting people actresses or female funny people comediennes but stating pronouns is now possibly mainstream? It seems somewhat opposed ideas

No, I am not a languages graduate - and I am horribly envious of you now! I'm just generally interested, purely as a lay person, in how languages develop and are related to each other.

Holly Walsh, the comedian, did a dissertation or thesis or something on medieval marginalia - apparently monks would get so bored copying out manuscripts all day they would draw/write silly or rude stuff in the margins! Presumably they were confident that whichever rich lord was going to own the book wouldn't actually read it...

Such a fascinating subject - also the points on this thread about the feminisation of words, and how that diminishes status.

That's so true! They copied for hours so must have got bored! Some of the illuminated manuscripts have somewhat racy pictures, too! 😉

My midwife was a man and was just called a midwife.

I have noticed older men using the terms ‘male nurse’ and ‘female doctor’, which I hate.

Interesting. In the manner of the quip “as the actress said to the bishop”…

Same here, I find it fascinating. Also my dad was a linguistics professor, so I grew up with conversations about such things.

Now that we're chasing words back through history.. one of my fave hobbies too

I noticed that in early 19th century documents the Reverend Mother [i.e. Boss Nun] of a convent was addressed as Mrs Smith, Mrs being a term of respect, not of marital status.

But then again, was Mrs Bridges in Upstairs Downtstairs married? I think not.
Similar use of Mrs as a title of respect for her job?

Definitely about status and respectability. Like French women addressed as madame after they reach a certain age, older German women would also be addressed as Frau. Think it's the same in Spanish and Italian as well.
German women are generally nowadays referred to as Frauen, however old they are and whether married or not. I don't think people use Fraulein (can't do the umlaut on my keyboard) for a grown woman anymore.

More terms have become neutral, which is good.

Vicars still get a fair amount of ‘lady vicar’, though only from people who don’t generally go to church.

I like the specifically female terms myself- we are moving into an era where an actress of the calibre of Helena Bonham Carter can embrace it. We can be proud of our identity, just like anyone else.

It ultimately comes from Latin. About 90% of English words of 2 syllables or more derive from Latin or Greek. With the Normans a lot of Latin came into English via Norman French.
Latin has 3 genders: Masculine, Feminine, Neuter.
The -or ending used for a lot of profession words , has the feminine ending -trix
actor is (m) used for men. actrix (f) used for women....actress
doctor (m), ...doctrix (f) ....doctor, dottoressa etc
nutrix (f) nurse
auctor (m) author, auctrix (f)
It has nothing to do with belittling women. Amelia Earheart was called an aviatrix as the Latin was aviator. A female US senator should be a Senatrix. Interestingly the Latin word for citizen , civis can be (m) or (f), even better sacerdos priestess/priest can also be (f) or (m).
I like having words for women! The idea that we need to use the male form to be 'normal' is depressing
PS: seamstress isn't Latin, it's supposedly Old English and the male version is seamster. I do know brewer is (m) and brewster, spinster, baxter (baker) are all (f). Great profession names!

You've just reminded me, when I first moved to France, a friend told me that if somebody says 'Madame..ou Mademoiselle?' to reply 'Madame' in a very firm no-nonsense voice, although I wasn't married, because 'it establishes the right power dynamics'

😀

The feminine version does not belittle women in itself, it's when the neutral term and the male version are the same. It's another example of man as default, woman as other.

Quite a lot of people at my church refer to our "lady vicar" despite the fact Lady vicars aren't (that) new or unusual these days.

Admittedly 30 years is a short time in history, so to older people lady Vicars are new. But we've had one in some form at another at that particular church for at least 15 years so the current one isn't a change from previously.

And whilst we're on the topic, can we please do away with the hideous 'shero'
There's already a perfectly good term for female hero, heroine. Shero sounds like idiots making some kind of point.

Hear, hear!

There is sewist, which is horrible too. I agree with you. Doubtless it will get thrashed out in time.
I had a problem years ago when I was looking for a gender-neutral word for fisherman, as in deep-sea rather than angler. These days they use fisher, which it has just occurred to me does go back a bit because Jesus used it! (Well, it's in the 17thC English Bible!)

Ultimately, in language, usage is the final arbiter, no matter what is grammatically, syntactically or historically "correct". The English language - much like it's parliament can neither bind it's successors or be bound by it's predecessors

Then there's context/

Worth noting that it's much easier to pay people less if they have a special word for their job. As many actresses will know.

Yes thank you for that! Here it is in ancient Greek: ἡρωίνη heroine
I almost cried when around 2006 young lesbians wanted to throw away lesbian for queer. It's such an ancient word and what could be better for your self esteem than to have your sexuality named after Sappho who was honoured by the ancient Greeks as the 13th Muse.

That really surprises me! My neck of the woods, there are more women than men. Three of the last 4 have been women, or 6 out of 7 if you include cumulates and associates. The lady vicar comment seems to crop up at funerals.

Curates, not cumulates!

I rather like words like Abbess, Prioress etc

Yes, I know what you mean - they have a weight of their own. The Abbess or Prioress is ruler of her own domain.

This is interesting, because there is the opposite trend in Spanish. But, even more interestingly, for the very same reason - to normalise the profession being carried out by the more uncommon (to date) sex.

For instance, you would traditionally use the masculine noun with the femenine article:
For example, 'el médico ' = the male doctor / 'la médico ' = the female doctor).
But now it's much more common to use the femenine (feminised) noun, 'la médica .

The reasoning is that there is nothing lesser about being a female anything. So you don't need to borrow the male version.

By the way, I also love words like Prioress and Abbess.