Feminised words

[Davros]

I've been pondering this. Why are we no longer supposed to call female acting people actresses or female funny people comediennes but stating pronouns is now possibly mainstream? It seems somewhat opposed ideas

Interesting question! I've noticed a trend among my children's peers and my younger colleagues to use "they" for everyone regardless of sex/gender. That seems both a rational response to avoid drama (mostly) and also in-line with avoiding "authoress" and so on.

I can't say I love it myself, but language change is always like that.

Good point Davros.
I think it shows a clash between the achievements of feminism - in this case that a woman is just an actor or a doctor or a poet, so best to avoid feminising words which were historically negative - who wants to be called a 'poetess' by a reviewer?? - and the reversal of those achievements by the proponents of extreme Gender Ideology.

I can imagine there are men who ID as women who would be thrilled to be called an 'actress' or 'authoress' because it would 'validate' them as female.🙄

I recall, though can’t remember my sources, discussions around the word actress in particular, that one reason for the move away from it was that it had, at least historically and to some extent today, derogatory undertones. From the time when it wasn’t seen as an entirely ‘respectable’ profession for women.

it could be a character slur in the way that actor never was.

of course it wouldn’t be an issue if women were simply respected.

The phasing out of female versions of professions has been around for longer than preferred pronouns, so I don't think they are related.

I think that for people who make a point of announcing their pronouns, they consider their pronouns (and associated beliefs) to be the most important thing about them.

A woman who tells you she is an actor, author, doctor or lorry driver is just a woman with a job and her sex is not important in how well or badly she does that job. A man who tells you he is an actress is more concerned with being considered female than with the nature of his job.

I guess it's an attempt to make us all equal? All actors, not actresses, all authors, not authoresses.
Personally I like the fact that I can be an actor or an actress whereas a p-owner can only be an actor!

I distinctly acting from other gendered title professions because actresses are specifically playing female roles.

It is therefore different from what an actor does.

Whereas a waiter/ waitress does the same job.

I agree. And because actresses are not paid comparably and do not have the same number and quality of roles, using the word "actor" for everyone hides inequality.

This is a false forced language change being driven by pro trans training groups and in Scotland school indoctrinating of children, which many parents (myself included) are pushing back against in particular when it comes to teaching the English language and we are slowly making progress.
Also because these language changes are being forced rather than organically they won't last. It's the same with all of the trans craze it's becoming seriously uncool

I always thought that adding -ess or -ette onto the end off a word to make it feminine belittles the role. I remember my history teacher telling me that when men and women campaigned for the vote, they were collectively called suffragists. When men got the women didn't, the women were called suffragettes, almost a two- finger salute to them.

I've noticed that "actress" now seems to be reserved for trans identifying males.

I find people using 'they' for a single person very confusing and it needs to drop back out of fashion.

I- a young adult- was brought up to use gender-neutral terms unless someone specifies that they prefer otherwise. So, in my mind everyone who acts is an actor unless an actress says she prefers the feminine word. Same goes for waiters, police officers, stewards, comedians, etc. In that way it seems quite similar to the expectations around pronouns, being based in preference. I've noticed the women who prefer the feminine terminology tend to be in more creative careers, such as actresses and comediennes, whereas I don't think I've ever heard a police officer say she prefers to be called a policewoman. I don't think it belies any particular political stance or ideology either way, it's just an observation.

(The one that trips me up is that I can't seem to find a good gender-neutral term for seamstress. Seamster sounds too much like modern slang, and I can't follow Sewing Bee's lead with "sewer" because I keep misinterpreting the subtitles and reading "sewer" as in "drainage pipe.")

Midwife is an interesting one. I can’t imagine midspouse ever catching on

There are lots of instances where roles are played by the opposite sex. A woman playing Prince Charming in a pantomime could still correctly be called an actress, just as a man playing an ugly sister would be an actor.

The suffragists and suffragettes were different branches of women's rights campaigners. Suffragists, who believed in non-violent protest, were the first group to be formed. Suffragettes were an offshoot of the suffragists who grew frustrated by the slow progress of non-violent protest and wanted more direct action. But "suffragette" was indeed coined to belittle the suffragettes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-42879161

Midwife is an old English term meaning "with woman". Your job is to be with the woman and help her. So a man could be called a midwife as it's not the job title that's gendered.

Thank you, very helpful. So wife refers refers to the mother, not the helper.

In German Weib = old-fashioned, slightly derogatory word for woman.
As opposed to Dame which means lady.

Yes. Wife just means woman, so in this case, the woman in labour. "Mid" being "with".
That use of "wife" also remains in the original wedding ceremony - "I now pronounce you man and wife" meaning they are a man and woman together. All women were "wife".

Although there's no evidence that this is derogatory, as wife meant every woman. Dame was used if a woman had an extra responsibility. Some medieval women farmers were "Dame". Or if they ran a school.

Weib was slightly derogatory in the same way that "woman" used to be slightly derogatory. (Kids taught to say a lady and a man, the nice lady etc...)
And your example of women of substance being described as Damen somewhat proves my point.

Yes, that's true. Although my knowledge comes from my studies of Medieval languages and really was intended just to make the point about the word midwife.
I think it's a nice term with a good meaning !

It is!
Medieval languages must have been a fascinating area. Did you specialise in Germanic languages?

On another note, I saw an old document recently with details of women in WW1 carrying coal, counter parts to coalmen, and they were called "coal lasses", but I suspect that was regional.
I'm glad "doctoress" didn't continue as a term!

Yes, I did! I love those languages and suspect you do too - are you a similar graduate?