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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kamala Harris has a problem with men. Will misogyny cost her the election?

331 replies

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 18:01

There was an earlier thread about whether the Democrats would support a WOC candidate https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5124648-will-us-democrats-support-a-woc-as-their-candidate-or-will-they-by-pass-kamala-harris

And I think there were some later about her policies, but then maybe there weren't. https://kamalaharris.com/issues/

But was depressed to see this article Kamala Harris has a problem with men. Will misogyny cost her the election?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/20/kamala-harris-has-a-problem-with-men-will-misogyny-cost-her-the-election
(Should have been men have a problem, not making out she is the problem.)

Polls reflect this age-old dichotomy. Men are more likely to back Trump; women lean towards Harris. A recent New York Times-Siena poll put her 16 points ahead of Trump among female voters. NBC gave her a 14-point lead with women. Trump leads by up to 16 points among men.

Harris’s gender may be tacitly affecting or reinforcing attitudes in other voter categories. In the New York Times poll, 60% of white college-educated voters backed Harris, while 63% of white non-college-educated voters backed Trump. Likewise, Trump, who is white, has a significant advantage among white people while Harris, who identifies as black and Asian, leads among non-whites. Yet voters in two other key categories, blacks and Hispanics, are less supportive of Harris than of Biden in 2020, surveys show – a decline partly driven by younger, non-college-educated Hispanic males. Speaking in pivotal Pennsylvania, Barack Obama angrily castigated his black “brothers” for finding “all kinds of excuses” not to support a woman.

Its just really depressing to think this is the basis on which the decision about the next US President is taken. Because like it or not what the US does or doesn't do impacts on the rest of us.

Even though they are now talking about Trump's mental capacity Trump’s Unwieldy Speeches Raise Questions About His Mental Acuity https://www.forbes.com/sites/saradorn/2024/10/16/trumps-unwieldy-speeches-raise-questions-about-his-mental-acuity/ it doesn't seem likely it will change the minds of his supporters. And is already clear he doesn't feel the need to abide by accepted norms in terms of procedures.

Divisive politics in the UK seems to have lead to an apathy, disengagement (low turn out at GE) but it seems, if news channels are to be believed, that in the US the devisions are making people more active engaged. More oppositional

Or rather men not caring about women's issues, or even trusting a woman to be President.

Kamala Harris has a problem with men. Will misogyny cost her the election? | Simon Tisdall

After a rousing start to her campaign, the Democratic candidate is flatlining in the polls, and sexism could swing the vote in Donald Trump’s favour

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/20/kamala-harris-has-a-problem-with-men-will-misogyny-cost-her-the-election

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Zahariel · 21/10/2024 18:35

The most depressing part of everything above is putting people into little, regressive boxes that does nothing to unite us as humans and everything to divide us. White, black, WOC (what the fuck) college educated, right left - it’s all bullshit tribalism, and arrogant of our hardwired social structures from 5,000 years ago being written into a world with 9 billion people and smart phones.

napody · 21/10/2024 18:38

That's a really misleading headline with the phrase 'having a problem with' meaming what it does in the UK. It makes it sound as if Harris is a misandrist. It's MEN that have a problem with HER.

Hoardasurass · 21/10/2024 18:52

Zahariel · 21/10/2024 18:35

The most depressing part of everything above is putting people into little, regressive boxes that does nothing to unite us as humans and everything to divide us. White, black, WOC (what the fuck) college educated, right left - it’s all bullshit tribalism, and arrogant of our hardwired social structures from 5,000 years ago being written into a world with 9 billion people and smart phones.

The problem is that Harris is one of the biggest proponents of identity politics and is a complete shit show of a politician.
If the Democrats (party) had chosen Michelle Obama to run against Trump as many Democrats (voters) wanted then I strongly believe that things would be very different. Instead we have a woman who has admitted that she got her start as a politician by having sex with her boss, she's incapable of stringing a cogent adhock sentence together.

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 18:57

napody · 21/10/2024 18:38

That's a really misleading headline with the phrase 'having a problem with' meaming what it does in the UK. It makes it sound as if Harris is a misandrist. It's MEN that have a problem with HER.

I know - and did point this out in OP.

But this type of language coming from the media only re-inforces the stereotypes.

So wonder whether the UK coverage on the US electioneering is in fact the problem

That the UK loves reporting in this way.

Is it real, or does the media push the groupings because they are too lazy to do more subtle informed coverage.

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EasternEcho · 21/10/2024 19:01

Hoardasurass · 21/10/2024 18:52

The problem is that Harris is one of the biggest proponents of identity politics and is a complete shit show of a politician.
If the Democrats (party) had chosen Michelle Obama to run against Trump as many Democrats (voters) wanted then I strongly believe that things would be very different. Instead we have a woman who has admitted that she got her start as a politician by having sex with her boss, she's incapable of stringing a cogent adhock sentence together.

Michelle Obama didn't want to run for office. That's her choice, not the voters' or the Democrats. Can you give an example of Harris not being able to string a cogent sentence? Also, would like a link to the source where she says she had sex with her boss to get into politics.

Zahariel · 21/10/2024 19:12

Hoardasurass · 21/10/2024 18:52

The problem is that Harris is one of the biggest proponents of identity politics and is a complete shit show of a politician.
If the Democrats (party) had chosen Michelle Obama to run against Trump as many Democrats (voters) wanted then I strongly believe that things would be very different. Instead we have a woman who has admitted that she got her start as a politician by having sex with her boss, she's incapable of stringing a cogent adhock sentence together.

i’d agree in large part, that anyone can run against trump and loose, as looks increasingly likely, says way more about them than it does about Trump.

Hoardasurass · 21/10/2024 19:24

EasternEcho · 21/10/2024 19:01

Michelle Obama didn't want to run for office. That's her choice, not the voters' or the Democrats. Can you give an example of Harris not being able to string a cogent sentence? Also, would like a link to the source where she says she had sex with her boss to get into politics.

The admission about her boss was from a tv interview she did years ago I can't remember where sorry. As for her inability to speak in a coherent way have you ever heard her response to an unscripted question? If not may I suggest that you listen to the 60 minutes add where they play her unedited answer to the questions about Israel, it's quite something and also just the most recent example.
You are correct about Michelle Obama unfortunately. I honestly believe that she would have won and been a brilliant president

EasternEcho · 21/10/2024 19:34

Of course I've watched Harris' interviews, and don't find her uncogent at all. Trump on the other hand! When asked whether Google should be broken up, he went on about the DOJ and voter rights, as just one of thousand examples. Harris understandably has to walk a tightrope on any answers on Israel. That's what politicians do. She's no more skirting the issue than Vance is when asked whether Trump lost the last elections. It is Fox News that finds her answers "confounding".

Also, it was Megyn Kelly of Fox News that spread the lies of Harris sleeping her way into politics. Harris said no such thing in any interview.

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 19:38

Quote: "In 1994 when she was 29 and a deputy district attorney in Alameda County, California she had an affair with 60 year old Willie Brown who was then California Assembly Speaker and later the mayor of San Francisco. He was technically married but had been separated from his wife for a long time. There was nothing secretive, the two went out in public and didn’t deny the relationship."

People in the same work place do have relationships.

So again just as the article headline implies the woman is in the wrong, not sure why KH is somehow a villain.

It could just as easily and more likely be an older man, with position and status exploiting a younger female colleague.

Its one thing not sharing another woman's political belief, but to stoop to slurring them in some sort of rabid tabloid way seems other the top, and totally inappropriate on FWR.

Sad
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Sailonsilverrgirl · 21/10/2024 19:39

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

JimmyGrimble · 21/10/2024 19:44

I can’t believe that on a feminism board someone is accusing Kamala Harris of sleeping her way to the top. Nice.

EasternEcho · 21/10/2024 19:46

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

I am inclined to agree with you. Although, with Clinton, we will never know because she was way ahead in the polls until James Comey of the FBI threw a spanner into the works at the last moment.

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 19:47

Clinton was perfectly intelligent and qualified, and lost to a mentally deficient male celebrity.

Dont forget that in terms of the vote, Clinton was more popular that Trump.

Luckily for Trump, the Electoral College, a creation of the white male establishment, stopped the person the majority of people had voted for, becoming President.

Contrary to its name, the electoral college is more a process than a body. Every four years, in the December following an election, its members – politicians and largely unknown party loyalists – meet in all 50 states on the same day and cast their votes for president. Then they essentially disappear.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/19/election-electoral-college-explained

Since George H.W. Bush won in 1988, Republican candidates have received the majority of the American people’s votes in only one presidential election.

In fact, it was the election that Mr Bush’s own son, George W Bush, won in 2004.

But despite the party’s dismal results, the GOP has still managed to claim the White House almost as many times as the Democrats.
The Electoral College is a ‘bad’ and ‘undemocratic’ system. So why do we still use it? | The Independent

How can the candidate with most votes lose? The US electoral college explained

Every four years, electoral college members meet in all 50 states and cast their votes – here’s what to know

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/19/election-electoral-college-explained

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EasternEcho · 21/10/2024 19:52

Zahariel · 21/10/2024 19:12

i’d agree in large part, that anyone can run against trump and loose, as looks increasingly likely, says way more about them than it does about Trump.

I'd say it says more about the voters, and the under current of misogyny that's unmistakable.

Pelagi · 21/10/2024 19:59

Patton Oswalt: “America is WAAAAAAAAY more sexist than it is racist. And it's pretty fucking racist.”

FrippEnos · 21/10/2024 20:04

Luckily for Trump, the Electoral College, a creation of the white male establishment, stopped the person the majority of people had voted for, becoming President.

Was it a problem before he won?
And if it was why hasn't anyone put forward a bill to change it?

As an aside to that

Harris much like Clinton is not a popular choice.

I hadn't heard about her "sleeping her way to the top", but in her time on the bar she was pretty harsh on black men.(I have no details as to whether the sentences were correct or not)
.

She was at one point being promoted as being black which didn't go down well with some black people.

and has been mentioned she promoted gender identity which in a country with many different religious variants is not going to go down well either.
Link that with the kick back against the changes to the protections that women have in sports (trans inclusion etc.).

username35890 · 21/10/2024 20:18

America is still a very conservative country with a Christian ethos. Look at the rise of the trad wife.

Trump is a populist who appeals to the working class. He presents an alternative to other politicians as he says things others don't.

He wants to deport people - like the UK, immigrants are scapegoated for the state of the country. He wants to build a wall - ditto. He's anti woke, he's misogynist, he's (barely) white, he's Christian and talks of challenging the establishment.

He's very hard right; protectionist, isolationist and nationalist. Globalisation and neo liberalism have scuppered the working class and Trump tells people what they want to hear.

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 20:39

Luckily for Trump, the Electoral College, a creation of the white male establishment, stopped the person the majority of people had voted for, becoming President.
Was it a problem before he won?
And if it was why hasn't anyone put forward a bill to change it?
-----

They did, it just means you weren't aware of this!

If you read the links I gave a lot of people think it is problematic and undemocratic, but seems to be one of those US institutions that no one dares talk about abolishing.

And in fact would lead to making changes to how Presidential Elections are held, and maybe in some previous decades could have been attempted.

Suspect that in the era of online conspiracy theories it just couldn't happen. Not forgetting the hanging chads are still a contentious issue.

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IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 20:43

Origins of the Electorial College

One group of delegates felt strongly that Congress shouldn’t have anything to do with picking the president. Too much opportunity for chummy corruption between the executive and legislative branches.

Another camp was dead set against letting the people elect the president by a straight popular vote. First, they thought 18th-century voters lacked the resources to be fully informed about the candidates, especially in rural outposts. Second, they feared a headstrong “democratic mob” steering the country astray. And third, a populist president appealing directly to the people could command dangerous amounts of power.

Out of those drawn-out debates came a compromise based on the idea of electoral intermediaries. These intermediaries wouldn’t be picked by Congress or elected by the people. Instead, the states would each appoint independent “electors” who would cast the actual ballots for the presidency.

But determining exactly how many electors to assign to each state was another sticking point. Here the divide was between slave-owning and non-slave-owning states. It was the same issue that plagued the distribution of seats in the House of Representatives: should or shouldn’t the Founders include slaves in counting a state’s population?

In 1787, roughly 40 percent of people living in the Southern states were enslaved Black people, who couldn’t vote. James Madison from Virginia—where enslaved people accounted for 60 percent of the population—knew that either a direct presidential election, or one with electors divvied up according to free white residents only, wouldn’t fly in the South.

“The right of suffrage was much more diffusive [i.e., extensive] in the Northern than the Southern States,” said Madison, “and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes.”

The result was the controversial “three-fifths compromise,” in which three-fifths of the enslaved Black population would be counted toward allocating representatives and electors and calculating federal taxes. The compromise ensured that Southern states would ratify the Constitution and gave Virginia, home to more than 200,000 slaves, a quarter of the total electoral votes required to win the presidency.

there were no political parties in 1787. The drafters of the Constitution assumed that electors would vote according to their individual discretion, not the dictates of a state or national party. Today, most electors are bound to vote for their party’s candidate.

And even more important, the Constitution says nothing about how the states should allot their electoral votes. The assumption was that each elector’s vote would be counted. But over time, all but two states (Maine and Nebraska) passed laws to give all of their electoral votes to the candidate who wins the state’s popular vote count. Any semblance of elector independence has been fully wiped out.

So why does the Electoral College still exist, despite its contentious origins and awkward fit with modern politics? The party in power typically benefits from the existence of the Electoral College, says Edwards, and the minority party has little chance of changing the system because a constitutional amendment requires a two-thirds supermajority in Congress plus ratification by three-fourths of the states.

(If these extracts dont make sense see https://www.history.com/news/electoral-college-founding-fathers-constitutional-convention )

Why Was the Electoral College Created? | HISTORY

The Founding Fathers had to compromise when it came to devising a system to elect the president.

https://www.history.com/news/electoral-college-founding-fathers-constitutional-convention

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NotBadConsidering · 21/10/2024 20:48

The Electoral College is important. It makes sure that the weight of a person’s vote in somewhere like Tennessee is just as important as someone’s in California, even if I wouldn’t agree with who they’d vote for. Without it, the candidate popular in New York and California would always win, which would always be a Democrat. This would breed deep malcontent across the country, a country with guns and the word militia in its constitution.

In the last 50 years, the Electoral College has elected Biden, Obama, Clinton, Carter for the Democrats, and Ford, Reagan, Bush x2 and Trump for the Republicans. It’s not unfair.

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 21:18

It’s not unfair.

The point is that as all the articles say, the candidate with the most votes doesn't win.

How is that right.

If it was one person one vote, at least you would know that they had won fair and square, not been part of party deals in different states.

So in the UK would you be happy that votes were not counted individually, but a county with fewer people living in it should have the right to tell areas of the country that were more populus that they should make do with what they as a minority want.

People in whichever state are represented in Congress and House of Representatives based on the majority of that state.

The president is meant to represent the country as a whole, so surely should be first past the post.

Even with all the machinations of the founding fathers, they didn't think or say political parties should be the basis.

And in fact its a shame almost that an Indpendent candidate could never win, not because they weren't good enough, but because the Party machinery and funding makes it impossible for an unaligned person to become President. Which in a way would be a more democratic situation, than having Presidents who can upset the balance is courts through appointment of judges.

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NotBadConsidering · 21/10/2024 21:28

The point is that as all the articles say, the candidate with the most votes doesn't win. How is that right.

Because as I said, it’s a safeguard for the rest of the nation. The popular vote winner has only lost the election 4 times in the entire history of the USA, two were in the 19th century and the others were Bush/Gore and Clinton/Trump. It’s not been a major historical problem, and the system can’t be labeled as a problem when it has seen both the election and removal of Trump from office.

MarieDeGournay · 21/10/2024 21:38

I've noticed a pattern in comments about women politicians - note, not women politicians' policies, which are 100% fair game, just the women themselves:

They are
'out of their depth'
'not very bright'
'can't string a coherent sentence together'
'who did they sleep with to get the job?'
and, especially for Black women
'they were only hired because they are the diversity candidate'.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen these in online comments about a whole range of women politicians.
It's become a sort of 'Female Candidate Bingo' by now🙄

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 21:40

it’s a safeguard for the rest of the nation.

In what way is it a safeguard?

Who are what is "the rest of the nation"?

You keep avoiding the issue.

Why shouldn't the President be elected on the popular vote.

The reality is its an anachronism created by people who thought ordinary folk were too stupid or ignorant to make a choice.

Its like saying that because once in the UK we had the divine right of kings we should still have it.

And given the number of articles there are about it not even functioning as intended as states have created rules that the originators did NOT approve, its been highjacked.

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AstonsStolenData · 21/10/2024 21:41

@IwantToRetire, @FrippEnos

Many Democrats and independents want to abolish the Electoral College. It's generally not covered in the media bc it would be almost impossible to do. It's in the US Constitution (i.e., not a regular law which would be fairly easy to change) which means that 2/3 of both houses of Congress and then 3/4 of the state legislatures would have to agree to any change. But why would small states or their representatives vote for that? Right now, they have a lot more power than they would if things were done by popular vote.

https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/three-branches/amendment-process

https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/history

The Amendment Process | Harry S. Truman

Adding a New Amendment to the United States Constitution Not an Easy Task! The United States Constitution was written "to endure for ages to come" Chief Justice John Marshall wrote in the early 1800s. To ensure it would last, the framers made amending...

https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/three-branches/amendment-process

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