Parkrunners! Parkrun survey

[Parkrunners]

If anyone is a parkrunner and has a survey from them, I'd urge you to fill it in. There are two free text sections which provide an opportunity to tell them exactly what the impact of their sexist policy decision not to protect the female sex category has been. They have clearly commissioned this survey to gather data on the mental health and motivation and self esteem and self achievement benefits of Parkrun, as well as its competitive benefits and self-competition benefits, but none of that has been protected for women and girl runners who have effectively been told that Parkrun cannot be bothered to collect accurate sex category data for them, because we somehow don't count. What is it meant to do to the motivation and mental health of female runners to be told we are so second class that our sex category doesn't matter and can be dispensed with?

As a middle aged woman, I am particularly pissed off as the only way I can tell if my running performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare myself to others in the same age or sex category. And I can only do this if the sex category is protected.

I am really sick of Parkrun both knowing full well the importance of age and sex data for running and for their Parkrun model, and knowing full well they cannot remove this as the men would not stand for it, whilst also pretending none of this matters and they are just a fun little social run when they need to pretend its ok to record runners under gender identity. Parkrun are trying to maintain a position of both recording this data and pretending it doesn't matter. This is nonsensical.

It's competitive for the people who want it to be, as they can look up their times afterwards (and for the best ones, see where they finished), compare themselves to others of similar age to see how they are doing relatively (as no 60+ is likely to want to compare themselves to 20somethings), and see whether they are improving relative to others. This can be a big motivator, even for those of us who will never be at the front - I'm a pretty terrible runner, but would still feel chuffed to move from e.g. lower half to top half of my age group.

Anyone who isn't interested in that aspect is free to ignore it, and clearly many people are not interested, and are just happy to finish, stroll round with their buggies or whatever. They are under no obligation to look at the times and stats afterwards, and are welcome to blissfully ignore them - so they are unaffected either way.

However, currently, for the people who DO value the competitive and/or performance-rating elements (and there are many, as the complaints over dropping the results previously showed!), there is currently a big bias, as male runners a) are much less likely to have their results/performance ratings affected by people running in a "gender" category that doesn't match their sex (and if they are affected, the difference is likely to be much smaller, and usually in their favour), and b) they have the option to massively increase their performance stats, at the expense of female runners, if they choose to run as a "woman".

Whereas women do not have that option to artificially bump up our own stats, and we DO stand to lose out much more when other people do, including potentially losing first position or other top positions in our age categories, and even overall first female finisher positions for the best women, to men - but it also affects every single woman lower down the rankings too.

HOW exactly is that fair, or "inclusive", to women? It would be easy enough to include both sex and "gender" if they really wanted, but even just listening to women and showing some understanding of our disappointment would be a start. Instead, Parkrun have been quite insultingly dismissive of women who complained, while (it seems) bending over backwards to let a small group of men get what they want. The misogyny and hypocrisy seems even clearer when you realise that a lot of the men prating at and insulting women online the most about this are the exact same men who ARE quite competitive themselves and were e.g. in groups tracking who had most "first finishes" and so on, but then love to tell women they should F off because "it's non-competitive and inclusive blah blah" (thinking of some of the ones I've had run-ins with previously!).

Quite.

I am assuming that someone who writes parkrun as Park Run, hasn't done one.

As I've been doing them for a long time now, it's a bit annoying when someone asks their granny to suck eggs and tries to explain in words of one syllable what (they think) it represents.

When you do a race you don't necessarily know the results there and then, either. Sometimes you do, but more commonly you get a text or have to wait until you get home to look them up.

"only when you go home and look up how you did time wise"

Exactly. Are you telling all women that they can't have that choice to be competitive. They should just choose not to look up their times?

The men can look up how they compare to other men but women just have to suck it up and not bother about being competitive as that's just for the men as the female category is now mixed sex.

The only category of people who get excluded are now the category of people who were born female. Hardly inclusive.

I wouldn't care if only they made it so the men couldn't be competitive and compare their times against other men either so that it's truly fair.

Indeed.

Anyone declaring an event is not ‘competitive’ in some way because people are not checking their position at the finish but their times etc when they get home must know they have already lost any valid argument.

It has been said on thread after thread that any release of details of performance is counter to the denial of being competitive. Parkrun cannot have it both ways and they are trying very hard to convince people that up is down and competitive is not competitive and that male people are female people.

I am assuming that someone who writes parkrun as Park Run, hasn't done one

Weird take! I've done several, and enjoy it when I do. Haven't done one for ages, should really start up again.
Would be interesting to know how many of those wanting to turn it all competitive have ever been - I notice the pp I asked upthread hasn't answered yet 🤔

I've been running and volunteering for a decade. I'm competitive every time I'm there. I gradually try and get past runner X, then runner Y and so on and try and sprint at the end when it's flat and overtake as many people as I can. Then I compare my times to other women my age. I do sometimes wonder if one of the ultra speedy women isn't.......
I ran more during this week as there was a woman who annoyed me last week and I was hell bent on beating her. So, yes, it's competitive.

I do sometimes wonder if one of the ultra speedy women isn't.......
See, this to me is just another level of ridiculous.
Gets home, checks list - "That woman's faster than me, must be a man..." 🙄

It's not a case of assuming anyone faster "must be a man", it's a case of no longer knowing if you came 10th or 12th or 18th (if it's a case of where you place nationally, you're pushed down hundreds of places or more). You cannot know if you're in the top 5% or top 10% of female runners because the female category is now mixed sex.

You do realise how much faster the average man runs don't you than the average woman? I may beat lots of men but I'm still only middle of the pack in most races. However, against other females, I'm in the top 10% of all female runners. I know this because I was fortunate to have raced before our sex category became mixed sex. It's really sad that nobody cared enough to protect the female sex category so now the data is pretty much useless and we can no longer see truly where we place against other female runners.

If you are concerned about results that are pushing you down the national rankings, then you are probably competing regularly in UKA events. The rules for those are sex-based.

So I'm not sure what your point is here - other than agreeing with my much earlier post that parkrun results should not be included in Run Britain rankings (or indeed any others)

BTW: You can of course know how you compare to the fastest women by looking at your age/sex grading. The comparators there are the elite records, all run under UKA rules. So if you are clocking 90-95% (ie top 5-10%) you can still find this out. (My home event's record holder in the age/sex grading category was over 90%, before they ceased publishing info on records)

Of course, assuming parkrun do as they say and abolish the publication of times (because they want, as they have said all along, to be a gender inclusive participation activity) then it will be completely impossible to know where you came or whether you're in the top 5-10%.

Parkrun is a very autocratic organisation - I've come across this in other aspects of its policy and practices. I really don't think it will do anything other than that which it says it will. So this survey might take them further down the track of abolition
(Disclaimer I did not participate in because it asks for exact dob, not age bracket, and I don't see why they need that level of detail for these purposes, so I haven't seen the full range of questions)

I filled in the survey. Made the point that although I love my weekly parkrun for the chance to be part of a community and catch up with my new running friends, I no longer volunteer. I refuse to give discretionary effort to organisations that treat my sex with contempt.

So you're not outraged enough to stop enjoying Parkrun yourself, just outraged enough to no longer volunteer so that others can do so?

To those whinging about your age grade or position being affected by the very few trans women who decide not only to compete but to also then cheat by entering under their gender rather than sex: there are nowhere near enough cases of this to affect the age grading (averaged from a huge number of runners); qnd your running position is going to be far more greatly affected by the weather, simply because when it is dry and sunny, more people turn up to run. In 14 years of attending Parkrun over many different locations, I have yet to be impacted in any way by a trans woman possibly entering. And if it makes any difference to how you perceive my bias on this stance, I both oppose gender neutral toilets and have worked with 3 trans colleagues in the last year alone - 2 of whom I like and one who I believe to be a PITA, which is down to their personalities, rather than sexualities.

Even one transwoman (and there are hundreds competing in the UK alone, according some figures, which imo is an epidemic, not 'few' or 'very few') competing changes the ranking for EVERY woman that follows.

Every woman.

oppose gender neutral toilets

What do you mean by that? Do you mean you prefer unisex, or you think transwomen should go in female facilities?

One man taking a woman's place will shift me down from 4/5/6 in my age group to 5/6/7. And that's one too many. He can shuffle over to the men's stats.

@TiredEyesSoreHeart

I'm afraid I haven't managed to find any genuine statistics for the number of trans women who enter worldwide, but there are over 10 million total runners worldwide. Even if there are 'hundreds (of tw) in the uk alone' (which I seriously doubt) and if we assume that the UK is going to have more per capita than many of the less liberal and tolerant countries, then this is hardly 'an epidemic'.

If Parkrun changes from 'gender' to 'sex', then TW who are currently entering as female are still going to enter as female, so I don't see how you think this is going to change things for you personally?

More people entering on a sunny day changes the ranking of every woman who follows. It is also really easy to cheat and cut corners on many routes, should anyone wish to do so, so this also changes the ranking of every woman who follows. There are many factors that will affect individual results, it just feels like people are trying to push their own agenda in this instance and risk a result where only individual results are given.

And with regards to opposing gender neutral toilets, I meant that I don't think all toilets should automatically be unisex or gender neutral, but rather male, female and, where possible, a third unisex / gender neutral option.

And the results are given in the UK that are specific to each race. So each male person who enters a female category directly impacts the ranking for female people at that race.

Why should any female person have to accept a potential lower ranking because a male person feels they should be validated by their result? Just because some female people think this is fine, why shouldn’t others campaign to make sure the rules are changed to reflect sex? Why should any female runner who thinks the current system should changed feel shamed because other female people dismiss their concerns or declare those campaigning should stop?

And are we being told that a male person who believes they should be treated as a female will not abide by any new policy that excludes them? That they will simply disrespect the rules and policies and register as female knowing they are male? Why would those male runners do this?

“And with regards to opposing gender neutral toilets, I meant that I don't think all toilets should automatically be unisex or gender neutral, but rather male, female and, where possible, a third unisex / gender neutral option”

Haven’t you just told us that male people will ignore any policies that exclude them from where they demand to be included?

But what do you want them to do? You turn up and you run, anyone can put themselves in any category, what could they do? I could put myself in a different age category if I wanted to feel smug, I’d only be cheating myself.

I just think there are bigger fights than this. As has been said many times, if you are a competitive runner there are plenty of other races you can sign up to. Parkrun is a free community event.

How about if they are discovered registering in the wrong category, they get their results removed from
the female category and listed as uncategorised?

Why should female runners accept that this race is going to be one where they cannot expect accuracy because some male people want to feel included? Why should any race in the UK at any level prioritise male people over female people?

Again, just because you personally (general you) don’t care, why dismiss those female people who do care and make them feel shame for caring and for disagreeing with your personal opinion?

“I could put myself in a different age category if I wanted to feel smug, I’d only be cheating myself.”

You would be cheating all the people of that sex category in that age group. You are not just ‘cheating yourself’.

If parkrun don’t want their races to be competitive then they should remove all ranking data from people’s results. The fact that they send people their rankings by sex category and by age means they have continued to make it competitive.

I'm not sure that people are hugely disagreeing with you in the way that you think they are. For example, I do believe that if a trans woman is currently entering as 'female' then they are cheating (both themselves and biological women) because they know they have a biological advantage that will impact the results.

What I (and a few other park runners on the same wavelength) are saying is that there are a) many ways to cheat if so inclined b) that changing 'gender' to 'sex' doesn't prevent the ability to still enter as female, in exactly the same way that I'm not prevented from entering under any category I want and c) that you can campaign all you want, but the more likely outcome is that you will only receive your individual results, a change that will piss off far more parkrunners than those who are genuinely upset by the current situation. We could also add in that the survey is actually assessing the positive impact on mental health - Parkrun is so overwhelmingly positive that it just feels like you could pick your battles.

I can see there's probably no way PR will prioritise girls & women over trans women. It's so shit that trans women want to ruin it for girls & women. It's so selfish and unfair. They could quietly and discreetly be registered as male in line with their biology and no one would be advantaged or disadvantaged and it wouldn't make a mockery of the female category or the data

So you didn’t intend to shame others by calling them whingers?

If people are pissed off not getting their rankings, doesn’t that then contradict the posts declaring it is not a competitive run? Of course, the negative impact mostly affects female runners. But maybe if all runners who want their rankings lose that ability, maybe they will start to understand the situation and support female runners.

This, Mango. No I'm not going to stop parkrunning - I enjoy the run and I enjoy the people I run with, so I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.

But the organisers have chosen to enable the above behaviour in preference to recognising women as proper people in our own right, not support humans. Their decision, but I choose not to donate my labour upholding it and have told them so.

You're perfectly at liberty to disagree; makes no difference to me.

@teawamutu I don't think you should stop parkrun if you don't want to, I just think that stopping volunteering to stick it to the organisers is a) hypocritical and b) only impacts negatively on your fellow parkrunners. You don't want unfairness but also don't want to help other women run at all?