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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK addresses “language policing”

323 replies

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 00:18

Haven't seen a thread on this, if there is one I'll ask for this to be removed.
JK posted about language policing today.

It has started a lot of intense discussion (as do most JK posts) however this time it is mainly from women and men who are gender critical, sex realists, trans windows etc who are upset and annoyed about her post.
I agree with her about language policing, I wonder what the thoughts are on this board?

x.com/jk]]

I'll copy the text in for those not on twitter/X

*I say the following again because, while I understand people's strong views on the matter, some of the language policing is getting a bit wearing.

As I've said multiple times, I do not believe that a person can be born in the wrong body and I don't believe in gendered brains or souls. I believe the ideology that preaches such ideas is dangerous.

However, there are people in this world who want to present as the opposite sex for many diverse reasons - some of which I'm truly sympathetic to, others far less so - all of whom call themselves 'trans.' I use the word 'trans' in the full awareness that this umbrella term covers multiple groups who have nothing else in common with each other, such as straight men who enjoy cross-dressing for erotic purposes and young lesbians who, tragically, feel they'll be happier without their breasts.

When I talk about sex-based rights, I use the word 'trans' to denote 'people who wish to be seen or treated as the opposite sex', no more or less. Telling me ad nauseam that 'there is no such thing as a trans person' isn't overly helpful, because you're trying to pull me into a different argument, on which I've already made my position clear.*

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ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 12/10/2024 13:07

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 12:36

Tooting33

Stonewall added the T to their remit in 2015, they have caused more damage than the GRA and they are partly responsible for the notion of a "trans child".

Not quite. There is a Stonewall document called:

"The Employment Equality (Sexual Orientation) Regulations
Guidelines for Employers
SECOND EDITION"

Which falls under Ben Summerskill's time. It contains wording such as:

"Gay and Lesbian Employees at Morgan (GLEAM), has had a great deal of involvement in the firm’s recruitment efforts and the extension of workplace benefits to same-sex partners. Since the merger between JP Morgan and Chase in January 2001, the network has been known as Pride and includes bisexual and transgender staff."

I am trying to locate a link but it is in the pdf copy on p25 under the chapter "Establish employee networks". On p5 it says:

"Throughout this guide, we use the abbreviations LGB to indicate lesbian, gay and bisexual, and LGBT to indicate lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender. Although the new laws do not relate to transgender people, employers who demonstrate good practice in this area are often in the forefront of good practice generally."

It deals with the 2003 regulations and Summerskill left in 2014.

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 13:51

What was *TeaMistress *
post reported and deleted for? Confused
Are there words we aren't supposed to use? I thought that was done and over with by now.

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TeaMistress · 12/10/2024 13:55

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 13:51

What was *TeaMistress *
post reported and deleted for? Confused
Are there words we aren't supposed to use? I thought that was done and over with by now.

I have no idea why my post has been deleted / censored. I have said nothing that isn't perfectly factual and correct. @MNHQ Care to comment on why you have done this. Why have I been censored for speaking the truth

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 13:57

ResisterOfTwaddleRex

That's interesting and that's the background work of those "old school TS".
When Ruth Hunt became CEO in 2014 she made a commitment to the T.
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/28/stonewall-ruth-hunt-promote-transgender-rights

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Datun · 12/10/2024 14:03

I honestly don't think J. K. Rowling is in any kind of mindset to make a moderate approach. Or a compromise.

And she must absolutely know, more than most people to be frank, how vile these perverted men can be.

I'm sure she will clarify, but at the moment, I genuinely think it's just a shorthand for the belief in a gender identity.

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 14:12

I genuinely think it's just a shorthand for the belief in a gender identity. Agree with this. But you can see from the reaction and some of the replies that people are annoyed and think she is compromising, that she is 'True T' and all sorts of other accusations from our own side. It's odd.

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ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 12/10/2024 14:38

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 13:57

ResisterOfTwaddleRex

That's interesting and that's the background work of those "old school TS".
When Ruth Hunt became CEO in 2014 she made a commitment to the T.
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/28/stonewall-ruth-hunt-promote-transgender-rights

I thought this too but I'm open to the idea that the ground was already laid and she had no choice, or enthusiastically pushed it forward.

The guide also says on p44:

"The new law in detail could not have been written without Anya Palmer, Old Square Chambers, Gray’s Inn, London WC1R 5LQ”

Same Anya as Sex Matters, it would appear.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 12/10/2024 14:45

I genuinely think it's just a shorthand for the belief in a gender identity.

I completely see this but the trouble is, the more you look at this issue and how's it's taken hold, the less inclined you are to let things slide. We need only look at Canada or particular US and Australian states to see what happens when you don't or can't hold the line.

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 15:15

ResisterOfTwaddleRex I don't think Anya has ever hidden that she worked with Stonewall? If you were to go back that far even KJK used to say TWAW...

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PriOn1 · 12/10/2024 15:28

I can completely understand using it as shorthand. It’s actually quite complicated avoiding all the language of gender identity ideology. There are also accusations of being terribly hardline and attracting attention on the grounds that refusing to use their chosen name means we want to erase them all, when all we really want is a definition that is properly defined by something other than “because I say I am”.

Religions and being gay are only protected under the EA because there are physical manifestations of those things. You can be religious all you like if it’s invisible. Internal beliefs are not covered unless there are physical signs that “out” you. For example, there’s no reason to protect people who are “bi” if they are in a monogamous heterosexual relationship.

To be protected because you’re “trans” doesn’t make sense, which is why the EA was written as it was, with “gender reassignment” being the physical manifestation required. Because the EA writers were overly generous, they also included “intending to undergo” which with hindsight, was a very poor choice as it is partially that which has allowed the idea that it’s fine simply to claim that internal essence is what makes you “trans” and broaden the whole thing out into the unsavory mess we see at present.

We can’t push for “our definition”. Using their word and trying to do so is oddly naive. It’s often been pointed out before on these boards, but a huge part of the transactivist campaign is to introduce new words, then change the definition once they are established. I guess the only word that really covers all the people who are currently fighting for so-called “trans rights” is “transactivists” but I would argue that the very fact that they have deliberately made “trans” into a messy, undefined group, we should not fall into the trap of giving it credence by using it.

Someone earlier suggested that “religion” covers everything from voodoo to Westboro baptists. Most people would add categories though, when mentioning those things, such as cult, primitive, extremist. If every time anyone mentioned a predatory male cross dresser as predatory trans, or a trendy-hop-on as bandwagon trans, then we could, perhaps use that term. But we are explicitly banned from suggesting there are such divisions, which tells us pretty much all we need to know.

Igmum · 12/10/2024 15:36

Thank you @PriOn1 outstanding analysis (and very good screen shots)

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 12/10/2024 15:47

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 15:15

ResisterOfTwaddleRex I don't think Anya has ever hidden that she worked with Stonewall? If you were to go back that far even KJK used to say TWAW...

I definitely didn’t know this but had heard about KJK. I do think the notion that all was well before Ruth Hunt arrived has gathered steam and that’s been The Story. But it would appear more complex than that and possibly unfair to Hunt.

What I don’t get is, if you’ve been in this for ages - even writing guides to help push it - and now we have all the evidence we have that the GRA is harmful and incompatible with truth and safeguarding, why not start working towards Repeal? You’re in an amazing position to do so.

BonfireLady · 12/10/2024 16:31

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2024 07:57

The issue here is if we are dealing with something that is a religious belief then we can't just ignore it and rewind the clock. Because unfortunately we have something of a militant group here. There has to be some careful threading here. Everything I know about JKRs and her understanding of authoritarianism and religious beliefs would say she is fully aware of the pitfalls of just going into hard reverse.

We need to create a situation where there is a removal of the enforcement part on others to this ideology and that sex based rights are properly recognised. With the ability to take action when there is an abuse of this (eg someone saying they are female when they are not).

We need to create a situation where the concept and lie that you can change sex is killed off.

We need to create a situation where not believing is fully protected and respected.

We need to create a situation where it's understood that the words gender and sex are not seen as interchangeable.

This means the creation of third spaces and the respect FOR EACH OTHER in the workplace. Which everyone should have anyway, without harassment.

A huge amount of what is going on is driven by these flaws and issues. Huge amounts of this are driven by power dynamics and poor understanding of stereotypes and the ability to abuse the system.

The whole thing is held up by a culture of fear and compulsion. Remove the 'how many fingers am I holding up Winston' and people will stop going along with it so blindly.

That also allows honest conversations about harms and conflicts of interest and abuses of power. We start having conversations about ethics again. And the impact on wives and siblings.

Without the power to enforce and control others, a lot of the attraction starts to collapse.

Ive talked about the parallels with anorexia before - and how girls with anorexia often know they are underweight. Their compulsion is driven by the desire to control not their desire to become thin.

What's fuelling this movement and made it become so extreme is a total lack of saying no.

You can't erase a belief whether you like it or no. You have people who can't cope with it. That's society. That's what freedom of speech is about. What you do however is draw lines in the sand over acceptable behaviour and none acceptable behaviour. You make the point that tolerance involves mutual respect and there are some situations where it is not acceptable to be making demands of others due to their beliefs and feelings.

You make sex completely visible but you also make it totally unacceptable to harass, harm or abuse people who believe in something different to you. Because we are all equal in belief.

This means a woman having the right to know who is treating her and to refuse if she prefers. Male doctors don't get the hump as being thought of sexual predators because a patient would prefer to see a female one. Why should a transgender one? Unless they think their emotional needs should come before those of a vulnerable patient. In which case they are unsuitable for the job because it's an abuse of power.

JKR is wise enough to understand that if you remove the tools to abuse women and you reinstate safeguarding, then huge parts of the attraction collapse because it's that - not gender identity as a concept alone - that's driving it.

If you start to recognise the extremist behaviour and treat that accordingly then society stops feeling controlled by it.

Remember allyship is driven by the well meaning to do good. If it's recognised that being good and respectful does not require great acts of self harm that are damaging to other parts of society, then again what's driving this falls apart.

JKR understands what's driving this in a lot of quarters is a pursuit of power and control over women. Because it's a mens rights organisation. Remove that and essentially 'whats the point' for a lot of people. And a lot of the significant comorbid mental health issues will become apparent.

You will also see the rise of sane conversations in the middle as an anchor. Stuff like 'why are trans identifying teens automatically blocked from accessing over mental health support when they say the magic word'.

The point is this: when MN started to allow sensible conversations, questions got asked.

This is what TRAs don't want to happen. They want you to focus on identity not behaviour, because the shield of identity allows for the unacceptable behaviours they want. If you decide to focus on behaviour it means they no longer hold power over others.

Equally is about everyone being equal in law - and not held hostage to someone else nor holding power over anyone else.

They don't want equality. And that's what's driving things.

Remove that and the political movement completely changes. You separate the militancy from the vulnerable who have various other additional needs (which we should be sympathetic towards). It splits the fundamentals of the movement and you can start to focus on protecting those who are actually vulnerable for a variety of reasons, from those who are suggesting this is a homogeneous group but have an agenda which seeks power over others.

It's been talked about before in terms of how middle aged male transitioners are the only group that are rent-a-quote for the media. For legitimacy they need young female transitioners to be lumped together as being the same as them. Yet the power dynamics are fairly obvious in terms of who gets to speak - the BBC never rings up a 20 year old female to speak on behalf of teenage girls transitioning. It's always men in their 40s screaming about how evil the Cass Review is. And we can't ask questions about why a male in his 40s with no medical is the appropriate person to be speaking about concerns over vulnerable girls with masses of comorbidities being allowed to have life limiting drugs with huge side effects.

Talking about repelling the GRA frankly isn't helpful. It only allows narratives about erasure and legitimatises victimhood.

If you put everything else into place, then the need and demand for a GRA should reduce anyway. And you don't get the same militant backlash (because you address behaviour first) being backed by the well meaning but clueless.

JKRowling understand how there's multiple groups here with varying needs. See them, understand their needs and how we can start to reach them, rather than entrenching and making them draw closer to those using this as a tool of power for nefarious reasons.

Beautifully put.

Because we are all equal in belief.
Yes. But personally I find it more useful to focus on our legal protection to not believe:

https://x.com/anyabike/status/1749777661855940901?t=TsJ9_uVhaRwcQgDDeiM9qA&s=19

Otherwise it's a case of "you believe we all have a gender identity", "I believe we all have a sex and it's immutable". We're at belief stalemate.

If we can tell TW that their belief they are women (whether real or feigned) won't get them in to women's sports and spaces, it's much more powerful than arguing why the belief that "sex is immutable" should be respected.

I'd like to see this definition from page 7 of the DfE's draft Gender Questioning Children guidance used universally in legislation:

Gender identity: is a contested belief. It is a sense a person may have of their own gender, whether male, female or another category such as non-binary. This may or may not be the same as their biological sex. Many people do not consider that they or others have a gender identity at all.

I'd even accept the first part about it being a contested belief being removed because all beliefs are contested and it sounds unnecessarily confrontational. The last sentence is the key bit. In a secular democracy, we don't force people to accept belief as fact or force them to perform tenets of that belief (preferred pronouns, upholding the concept of a virgin birth as biologically possible etc) in law.

x.com

https://x.com/anyabike/status/1749777661855940901?s=19&t=TsJ9_uVhaRwcQgDDeiM9qA

BonfireLady · 12/10/2024 16:34

I've not RTFT yet (I will continue reading when I get chance) but I agree with JKR's points and I'm glad she raised them.

WifeOfTiresias · 12/10/2024 16:49

Brainworm · 12/10/2024 06:43

Both JKR and Helen Joyce are brilliantly articulate. Both draw on their scholarly prowess, one in English and one in Maths.

Translating JKRs points into mathematical concepts, she is saying:

Set A: Females
Set B: Males
Intersecting Sets (Venn diagram)
Region 1: Individuals in Set A but not B= females who like to be regarded as females
Region 2: Individuals in Set B but not A = males who like to be regarded as males
Region 3: Individuals in Set A and B = females and males who do not like to be regarded as their sex.

TRAs try to blur/disrupt/queer categories. Their arguments are destroyed by reasoning. We need a short hand way to put forward this logic, and clear labels for regions are needed. I agree that cis is unacceptable as it centres identity. We need labels that centre sex but depict regions 1 and 2. Providing more precise/ accurate labels/language can over-ride TRAs efforts to blur things. If there was widespread adoption/use of labels that were understood as depicting the 3 regions, this would put GCs in a much better position to argue for single sex provision.

There are no, and never can be, any individuals in both set A and set B. Females cannot be males, males cannot be females.

I agree with JKR's definition of trans here, as being individuals who wish to be seen as the opposite sex to the one they actually are. They WISH to be seen in this way and use various means to RESEMBLE the opposite sex as closely as they can. But they can never BE the opposite sex. Some of them are able to recognise this, others cannot.

TempestTost · 12/10/2024 17:00

I think she's correct, and it's fucking annoying in a lot of contexts, not just GI.

There are times when in a conversation it's clear that someone is using a term in a way that begs the question, and it can be worth querying. In a lot of other cases, and I'd place anything I've seen JKR say, it's clear she's using it in a limited fashion.

I also think there is never anything wrong with asking, in a discussion, what the person means by using certain language, if you aren't sure.

I never use the language "cis" for example, but I've seen it used where it was clear to me that the reason was fairly legitimate for clarity where the language had been mangled by others, for example in an article. I'm not going to nitpick someone trying to navigate the crazy of GI language without being misunderstood.

And here is the thing, it is ok if others sometimes use slightly different language than you would choose, and it's also the case that some people don't have the same facility with language as others. You can disagree with the person's choice and not have to make an issue of it every frigging time.

Sometimes I think that is the underlying issue, people police others language because they themselves tend to use it as a really blunt instrument and are very black and white about it. And there can also be something self-righteously satisfying about telling people they are using wrong speak. So it's not even a matter of just letting a disagreement pass when it isn't central to the discussion, the people complaining are actually not understanding how the language is being used.

A frequent example I see is people who inset themselves into discussions about pornography and tell people off about using the term "child pornography" because they for some reason believe the word pornography means it's consensual. It's very similar to people who think the word sex means it's consensual. It seems to be something people have read, and not questioned, but has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the words. But they love going around and telling other people they are child abuse or rape apologists if they don't use the approved language.

Part of this is just the trajectory of progressive social justice for years seems to be so focused on language policing, and incorrect language being offensive.

Ohfuckrucksack · 12/10/2024 17:00

I think we can all choose for ourselves what we are happy to say and what we are not.

I don't want my speech compelled by anyone, including J K Rowling.

She's stated her position and that's where she wants to be - that is her right and the right of each individual to choose.

I prefer not to use the word 'trans' because for me it infers I am accepting that it is a valid concept that I believe in - I don't

I will use words that are respectful but not accepting - individuals who are gender non conforming, struggling with their identity etc. - because this is how I view them.

DeanElderberry · 12/10/2024 17:06

yes - I've been careful to refer to 'child abuse images' after people said they found the other term offensive, but I'm pretty sure a lot of pornographic images of adults are obtained without full consent - or at least with consent compromised by poverty or addiction.

But the attempt to insist that you can only refer to 'sex' if you're describing something fully consensual is deeply misleading.

CherryBlossomArt · 12/10/2024 17:06

I don’t agree with her here.

Using the language and naming of terms coined by people who actively oppose your rights, is to disempower yourself, disempower your cause and lend credence to those who wish you harm.

The term “trans person/people/man/woman/child” was coined by a group of people with an agenda to erode women’s rights by tweaking language and law in such a way that nullifies women’s rights (along with everyone’s right to speak the truth as they see it or to have confidence in documents, such as birth certificates, to tell the truth about people- to be able to trust the State to be straight with them).

Using the terms of those who conspire against you, is like trying to argue against eugenics, but still classifying people as ubermensch and untermensch. You have already conceded that they are right and you are wrong.

EasternStandard · 12/10/2024 17:08

Ohfuckrucksack · 12/10/2024 17:00

I think we can all choose for ourselves what we are happy to say and what we are not.

I don't want my speech compelled by anyone, including J K Rowling.

She's stated her position and that's where she wants to be - that is her right and the right of each individual to choose.

I prefer not to use the word 'trans' because for me it infers I am accepting that it is a valid concept that I believe in - I don't

I will use words that are respectful but not accepting - individuals who are gender non conforming, struggling with their identity etc. - because this is how I view them.

Same

JKR has done so much good I have no issue with her stated language, it’s her decision

I don’t believe in gender ideology and refute that language

biscuitandcake · 12/10/2024 17:09

Catholics exist, Muslims exist, Atheists exist. I am none of those things but am perfectly happy to use those words for those who do fit that definition, and people are allowed to form themselves into what groups they choose. What they can't ddo is demand that their words/language overwrites their other peoples definitions of themselves, or reality or that their beliefs take precedence over others. So using the word Catholic is not me conceding that bread and wine literally change into the literal blood and flesh of Jesus in the Eucharist, using the word Muslim does not mean I agree to call myself an infidel etc.

TempestTost · 12/10/2024 17:12

Without the power to enforce and control others, a lot of the attraction starts to collapse.

Yes, this is a big part of the best approach for me.

The issue around people using prefered pronouns is a good example IMO. Ultimately, I would like to see this go by the wayside, and I tend to think it will eventually.

But right now there is a huge amount of divergence socially around whether it should be done, and in some contexts, like the workplace, not doing so can cause more immediate problems, including some significant ones (alienating a vulnerable person who is seeking medical help, say. Or even getting fired.)

It's not the direct challenge by individuals in these circumstances that will cause the requests to go away altogether. It is the increasing questioning of the concepts by society at large, and also the lack of advantage for people who are hoping to get things like access to women's spaces.

TempestTost · 12/10/2024 17:23

DeanElderberry · 12/10/2024 17:06

yes - I've been careful to refer to 'child abuse images' after people said they found the other term offensive, but I'm pretty sure a lot of pornographic images of adults are obtained without full consent - or at least with consent compromised by poverty or addiction.

But the attempt to insist that you can only refer to 'sex' if you're describing something fully consensual is deeply misleading.

Yes, I'm sure lots aren't.

But it's also just total bs. That is not in any way inherent in the word pornography. Which just means obscene pictures. That is images created for sexual purposes.

So who decided they should start telling people it meant something different and what was their motivation? They were ignorant, or they did it for other reasons.

I don't actually think it's a particularly good idea to change perfectly legitimate use of language just because someone says they find it offensive. It leads to all kinds of bad places. They should be pushed back in terms of their claims if they aren't true.

CherryBlossomArt · 12/10/2024 17:24

biscuitandcake · 12/10/2024 17:09

Catholics exist, Muslims exist, Atheists exist. I am none of those things but am perfectly happy to use those words for those who do fit that definition, and people are allowed to form themselves into what groups they choose. What they can't ddo is demand that their words/language overwrites their other peoples definitions of themselves, or reality or that their beliefs take precedence over others. So using the word Catholic is not me conceding that bread and wine literally change into the literal blood and flesh of Jesus in the Eucharist, using the word Muslim does not mean I agree to call myself an infidel etc.

This isn’t quite the same though is it? A ‘Catholic’ is a follower/believer/devotee of the Roman Catholic version of Christianity.

The term ‘trans person’ doesn’t mean ‘a follower/believer/devotee of transgenderism’, because there are many followers/believers/devotees of transgenderism, who do not describe themselves as ‘trans’. They would probably describe themselves as “cis allies”.

To use the words “trans” or “cis” people, is to use the language of believers. In much the same way, saying something like “The Risen Christ”, or “Our Saviour” or “The Mother of God” is the language of believers. Non-believers would use the names Jesus or Mary.

DeanElderberry · 12/10/2024 17:29

Yes, I might use the term 'Our Lady' if talking on a religious theme with a fellow Catholic, but not in mixed company since a non Catholic would be entirely justified (and not offensive) if they pointed out that as far as they're concerned she isn't their lady.