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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK addresses “language policing”

323 replies

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 00:18

Haven't seen a thread on this, if there is one I'll ask for this to be removed.
JK posted about language policing today.

It has started a lot of intense discussion (as do most JK posts) however this time it is mainly from women and men who are gender critical, sex realists, trans windows etc who are upset and annoyed about her post.
I agree with her about language policing, I wonder what the thoughts are on this board?

x.com/jk]]

I'll copy the text in for those not on twitter/X

*I say the following again because, while I understand people's strong views on the matter, some of the language policing is getting a bit wearing.

As I've said multiple times, I do not believe that a person can be born in the wrong body and I don't believe in gendered brains or souls. I believe the ideology that preaches such ideas is dangerous.

However, there are people in this world who want to present as the opposite sex for many diverse reasons - some of which I'm truly sympathetic to, others far less so - all of whom call themselves 'trans.' I use the word 'trans' in the full awareness that this umbrella term covers multiple groups who have nothing else in common with each other, such as straight men who enjoy cross-dressing for erotic purposes and young lesbians who, tragically, feel they'll be happier without their breasts.

When I talk about sex-based rights, I use the word 'trans' to denote 'people who wish to be seen or treated as the opposite sex', no more or less. Telling me ad nauseam that 'there is no such thing as a trans person' isn't overly helpful, because you're trying to pull me into a different argument, on which I've already made my position clear.*

OP posts:
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username3678 · 12/10/2024 00:29

I agree and am fed up with it on both sides. People have become so entrenched that they've forgotten the human.

For example, I was trying to say something about trans rights and every time I said it, it was corrected to women's rights. People kept correcting what I was saying which changed it.

On the other hand, you seemingly can't say anything on trans issues without being called transphobic.

Trans people exist so it's irritating for people to say they don't.

Seriestwo · 12/10/2024 00:39

O struggle to disagree with her. Gender dysphoria exists, fetishists exist. Telling women to mind their lnguage is regressive.

PurpleSparkledPixie · 12/10/2024 00:40

For example, I was trying to say something about trans rights and every time I said it, it was corrected to women's rights. People kept correcting what I was saying which changed it.
Unfortunately those rights clash despite Stonewall and others saying they don't. Women are having their legal rights diluted and taken away to give trans extra rights. Trans already have the same rights as others, they don't need extras.

Trans people exist so it's irritating for people to say they don't.
Nobody on this board says they don't exist, more that they cannot change sex. Cross-dressers is the old unfashionable term but that is what they used to be called and they certainly did exist.

username3678 · 12/10/2024 00:49

PurpleSparkledPixie · 12/10/2024 00:40

For example, I was trying to say something about trans rights and every time I said it, it was corrected to women's rights. People kept correcting what I was saying which changed it.
Unfortunately those rights clash despite Stonewall and others saying they don't. Women are having their legal rights diluted and taken away to give trans extra rights. Trans already have the same rights as others, they don't need extras.

Trans people exist so it's irritating for people to say they don't.
Nobody on this board says they don't exist, more that they cannot change sex. Cross-dressers is the old unfashionable term but that is what they used to be called and they certainly did exist.

Unfortunately those rights clash despite Stonewall and others saying they don't. Women are having their legal rights diluted and taken away to give trans extra rights. Trans already have the same rights as others, they don't need extras.

Thank you, I'm aware of the issues. In this particular example, I was trying to quote someone who was talking about trans rights and people kept changing it to women's rights which completely changed the quote. I'm aware that trans people have rights and it's perfectly acceptable to talk about those rights.

Nobody on this board says they don't exist, more that they cannot change sex. Cross-dressers is the old unfashionable term but that is what they used to be called and they certainly did exist.

I'm not talking about this board, I'm talking about what Rowling said:

Telling me ad nauseam that 'there is no such thing as a trans person'

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 12/10/2024 00:52

If you don’t have X and want to see JKRs post with replies, try Nitter:

https://nitter.poast.org/jk_rowling/status/1844653922100584947#m

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 00:54

username3678

Yes, I've seen what you are talking about a lot, it's frustrating.

OP posts:
Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 00:58

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations That's handy, thank you!
I think her follow-up post is even more confusing for people, she is using the term "old school transexuals".

OP posts:
Enough4me · 12/10/2024 01:00

JK is showing a point of compromise. Call yourself trans, that's fine, we'll all call you trans, but you remain your sex with your current sex based rights. So there's no change, you just have a label. Meanwhile we don't want or accept additional label (cis, cervix havers etc.)

Enough4me · 12/10/2024 01:01

A man in a dress is a man in a dress. He can choose to add the label trans, but not use women's spaces.

username3678 · 12/10/2024 01:04

Mayyouleave · 12/10/2024 00:54

username3678

Yes, I've seen what you are talking about a lot, it's frustrating.

There's a purity of thought at both ends of the spectrum which make it difficult for any nuance.

IwantToRetire · 12/10/2024 02:06

Dont agree.

There is a huge difference between someone who suffers from gender disphoria and someone who "cross dresses" (ie challenges societal gender norms).

Opting to us the word trans is to accept that the TRAs are right and their campaign valid.

Unless and until it is widely (re)accepted that nobody can change sex, you cant have a sane discussion.

We cant have an informed discussion if we are forced to use the words the TRAs have created to deliberately undermine sex based rights.

biscuitandcake · 12/10/2024 02:51

There is a huge difference and JKR acknowledges that. But her definition of trans "people who wish to be seen or treated as the opposite sex" or "people in this world who want to present as the opposite sex for many diverse reasons - all of whom call themselves 'trans"" is a really good, careful definition which brings clarity And fits with how the word is currently used and understood.
Contrast that to the various definitions of the word woman provided by people on the TRA side of the debate - all of which are either so broad as to be meaningless, inadvertently exclude a large proportion of actual females, or are just circular, and you see what a good, carefully thought through definition it is!

quixote9 · 12/10/2024 04:25

I realize it's a side issue but my first thought, one that floors me, is imagining arguing with JKRowling, JKRowling, about using language.

Are they serious? And nuts?

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 12/10/2024 06:39

I don't agree with her. Words have to have meaning. When she says this:

there are people in this world who want to present as the opposite sex for many diverse reasons - some of which I'm truly sympathetic to, others far less so - all of whom call themselves 'trans.'

How does that help us on a practical basis as regards a cross dressing teacher or care home worker? It doesn't. Men who do this, use the label to get their own way and erode our rights. That's square in "pronouns for this person I've decided for you" territory.

Repeal the GRA.

JustSpeculation · 12/10/2024 06:41

Opting to us the word trans is to accept that the TRAs are right and their campaign valid.

Why? It strikes me that JKR is giving the word a precise, clear meaning, which the TRAs consistently refuse to do. They define it in a circular fashion: Trans is not Cis and Cis is not trans. She's not accepting the TRA's point of view. She's throwing a bloody great grenade into the middle of it.

Brainworm · 12/10/2024 06:43

Both JKR and Helen Joyce are brilliantly articulate. Both draw on their scholarly prowess, one in English and one in Maths.

Translating JKRs points into mathematical concepts, she is saying:

Set A: Females
Set B: Males
Intersecting Sets (Venn diagram)
Region 1: Individuals in Set A but not B= females who like to be regarded as females
Region 2: Individuals in Set B but not A = males who like to be regarded as males
Region 3: Individuals in Set A and B = females and males who do not like to be regarded as their sex.

TRAs try to blur/disrupt/queer categories. Their arguments are destroyed by reasoning. We need a short hand way to put forward this logic, and clear labels for regions are needed. I agree that cis is unacceptable as it centres identity. We need labels that centre sex but depict regions 1 and 2. Providing more precise/ accurate labels/language can over-ride TRAs efforts to blur things. If there was widespread adoption/use of labels that were understood as depicting the 3 regions, this would put GCs in a much better position to argue for single sex provision.

nutmeg7 · 12/10/2024 07:50

I think sometimes, when people say “there’s no such thing as a trans person”, they are not saying “there’s no such thing as someone who calls themselves trans” but they are saying that “there’s no such thing as being born with a male body but really being female inside in your soul”

I think they are saying that this “explanation” for feeling wrong in your own body is not correct or based on any sort of science, and defining “trans” as an immutable and innate property of a person that can be diagnosed and verified is not true.

I think that’s where the arguments arise. Of course there are people who call themselves trans and want to be seen as the opposite sex, and of course they exist.

But it doesn’t mean that their explanation of their intense feelings (“I’m really a woman even though my body is male”) is correct. And I think that is what people mean when they say there is no such thing as “trans”

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/10/2024 07:54

Exactly @nutmeg7

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2024 07:57

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 12/10/2024 06:39

I don't agree with her. Words have to have meaning. When she says this:

there are people in this world who want to present as the opposite sex for many diverse reasons - some of which I'm truly sympathetic to, others far less so - all of whom call themselves 'trans.'

How does that help us on a practical basis as regards a cross dressing teacher or care home worker? It doesn't. Men who do this, use the label to get their own way and erode our rights. That's square in "pronouns for this person I've decided for you" territory.

Repeal the GRA.

The issue here is if we are dealing with something that is a religious belief then we can't just ignore it and rewind the clock. Because unfortunately we have something of a militant group here. There has to be some careful threading here. Everything I know about JKRs and her understanding of authoritarianism and religious beliefs would say she is fully aware of the pitfalls of just going into hard reverse.

We need to create a situation where there is a removal of the enforcement part on others to this ideology and that sex based rights are properly recognised. With the ability to take action when there is an abuse of this (eg someone saying they are female when they are not).

We need to create a situation where the concept and lie that you can change sex is killed off.

We need to create a situation where not believing is fully protected and respected.

We need to create a situation where it's understood that the words gender and sex are not seen as interchangeable.

This means the creation of third spaces and the respect FOR EACH OTHER in the workplace. Which everyone should have anyway, without harassment.

A huge amount of what is going on is driven by these flaws and issues. Huge amounts of this are driven by power dynamics and poor understanding of stereotypes and the ability to abuse the system.

The whole thing is held up by a culture of fear and compulsion. Remove the 'how many fingers am I holding up Winston' and people will stop going along with it so blindly.

That also allows honest conversations about harms and conflicts of interest and abuses of power. We start having conversations about ethics again. And the impact on wives and siblings.

Without the power to enforce and control others, a lot of the attraction starts to collapse.

Ive talked about the parallels with anorexia before - and how girls with anorexia often know they are underweight. Their compulsion is driven by the desire to control not their desire to become thin.

What's fuelling this movement and made it become so extreme is a total lack of saying no.

You can't erase a belief whether you like it or no. You have people who can't cope with it. That's society. That's what freedom of speech is about. What you do however is draw lines in the sand over acceptable behaviour and none acceptable behaviour. You make the point that tolerance involves mutual respect and there are some situations where it is not acceptable to be making demands of others due to their beliefs and feelings.

You make sex completely visible but you also make it totally unacceptable to harass, harm or abuse people who believe in something different to you. Because we are all equal in belief.

This means a woman having the right to know who is treating her and to refuse if she prefers. Male doctors don't get the hump as being thought of sexual predators because a patient would prefer to see a female one. Why should a transgender one? Unless they think their emotional needs should come before those of a vulnerable patient. In which case they are unsuitable for the job because it's an abuse of power.

JKR is wise enough to understand that if you remove the tools to abuse women and you reinstate safeguarding, then huge parts of the attraction collapse because it's that - not gender identity as a concept alone - that's driving it.

If you start to recognise the extremist behaviour and treat that accordingly then society stops feeling controlled by it.

Remember allyship is driven by the well meaning to do good. If it's recognised that being good and respectful does not require great acts of self harm that are damaging to other parts of society, then again what's driving this falls apart.

JKR understands what's driving this in a lot of quarters is a pursuit of power and control over women. Because it's a mens rights organisation. Remove that and essentially 'whats the point' for a lot of people. And a lot of the significant comorbid mental health issues will become apparent.

You will also see the rise of sane conversations in the middle as an anchor. Stuff like 'why are trans identifying teens automatically blocked from accessing over mental health support when they say the magic word'.

The point is this: when MN started to allow sensible conversations, questions got asked.

This is what TRAs don't want to happen. They want you to focus on identity not behaviour, because the shield of identity allows for the unacceptable behaviours they want. If you decide to focus on behaviour it means they no longer hold power over others.

Equally is about everyone being equal in law - and not held hostage to someone else nor holding power over anyone else.

They don't want equality. And that's what's driving things.

Remove that and the political movement completely changes. You separate the militancy from the vulnerable who have various other additional needs (which we should be sympathetic towards). It splits the fundamentals of the movement and you can start to focus on protecting those who are actually vulnerable for a variety of reasons, from those who are suggesting this is a homogeneous group but have an agenda which seeks power over others.

It's been talked about before in terms of how middle aged male transitioners are the only group that are rent-a-quote for the media. For legitimacy they need young female transitioners to be lumped together as being the same as them. Yet the power dynamics are fairly obvious in terms of who gets to speak - the BBC never rings up a 20 year old female to speak on behalf of teenage girls transitioning. It's always men in their 40s screaming about how evil the Cass Review is. And we can't ask questions about why a male in his 40s with no medical is the appropriate person to be speaking about concerns over vulnerable girls with masses of comorbidities being allowed to have life limiting drugs with huge side effects.

Talking about repelling the GRA frankly isn't helpful. It only allows narratives about erasure and legitimatises victimhood.

If you put everything else into place, then the need and demand for a GRA should reduce anyway. And you don't get the same militant backlash (because you address behaviour first) being backed by the well meaning but clueless.

JKRowling understand how there's multiple groups here with varying needs. See them, understand their needs and how we can start to reach them, rather than entrenching and making them draw closer to those using this as a tool of power for nefarious reasons.

Yirk · 12/10/2024 08:00

Good clear post Redtoothbrush👍

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/10/2024 08:05

Great post RTB. 👏

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2024 08:05

JustSpeculation · 12/10/2024 06:41

Opting to us the word trans is to accept that the TRAs are right and their campaign valid.

Why? It strikes me that JKR is giving the word a precise, clear meaning, which the TRAs consistently refuse to do. They define it in a circular fashion: Trans is not Cis and Cis is not trans. She's not accepting the TRA's point of view. She's throwing a bloody great grenade into the middle of it.

She's challenging power dynamics. Power is caught up in the circular undefined argument of what a woman is.

For the law to work for women you need clear definitions. They don't want the law to work. They know that you can't have safeguards and a definition of women as just a feeling. They know removal of safeguards is ultimately not paltable to the public as a whole. They don't want to have that conversation because if they do, difficult questions get asked. They want to keep the public on board or in fear because that's where power lies.

And that's why JKR is so evil.

She understands the power of language and that it's the glue that's holding a bunch of different groups with completely different vulnerabilities and needs (and desires) together as a homogeneous group under the umbrella known as trans identity

She also sees how fragile this actually is, if you ask the right questions. And that these questions are only possible to raise is you are in an environment where the power of fear isn't present.

She knows history and language.

Listen to her.

This isn't a compromise position even if you think it looks like one.

GrumpyPanda · 12/10/2024 08:08

quixote9 · 12/10/2024 04:25

I realize it's a side issue but my first thought, one that floors me, is imagining arguing with JKRowling, JKRowling, about using language.

Are they serious? And nuts?

And yet, just an hour before the tweet we're busy discussing, she was seen online abusing the reflexive pronoun <ducks and runs> 🤣🤣🤣🤣

JK addresses “language policing”
SnakesAndArrows · 12/10/2024 08:21

Brainworm · 12/10/2024 06:43

Both JKR and Helen Joyce are brilliantly articulate. Both draw on their scholarly prowess, one in English and one in Maths.

Translating JKRs points into mathematical concepts, she is saying:

Set A: Females
Set B: Males
Intersecting Sets (Venn diagram)
Region 1: Individuals in Set A but not B= females who like to be regarded as females
Region 2: Individuals in Set B but not A = males who like to be regarded as males
Region 3: Individuals in Set A and B = females and males who do not like to be regarded as their sex.

TRAs try to blur/disrupt/queer categories. Their arguments are destroyed by reasoning. We need a short hand way to put forward this logic, and clear labels for regions are needed. I agree that cis is unacceptable as it centres identity. We need labels that centre sex but depict regions 1 and 2. Providing more precise/ accurate labels/language can over-ride TRAs efforts to blur things. If there was widespread adoption/use of labels that were understood as depicting the 3 regions, this would put GCs in a much better position to argue for single sex provision.

I get what you’re trying to say, but the Female circle and Male circle do not intersect. Each of the separate Male and Female circles entirely contain a smaller circle labelled Trans, which as JKR articulates, is a term for those people who believe they are/wish they were/identify as the opposite sex.

People who call themselves trans are obviously real. It’s like Christians. I know several and they are definitely real and genuinely believe they are Christians. The fact that I am an atheist doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Datun · 12/10/2024 08:23

The problem with that is going to be exactly what she says. That trans covers confused and vulnerable teen girls, and cross dressing men.

People at the coal face, are not going to be able to communicate effectively if that one word covers all the different cohorts JKR mentions.

A man fiercely getting off on wanking into his wife's or even his daughter's knickers because he's trans couldn't be further from the vulnerable, teen lesbian fearful of her sexuality and wanting to hide, because she's also trans.

Yes, it's a word. And one we all use, so we know it exists. And we do apply to those different groups. My son thinks he's trans, my husband has come out as trans, etc.

But on an individual level, women are going to know their husband is just a sex driven fetishist, or their daughter has been brainwashed.

I think JK is exceptionally clever and has shit hot insight, and I don't for a second think she's naive. So I'm not disagreeing and I'd like to hear more.

But I can understand why the umbrella term trans isn't accepted by invested individuals.

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